The Moment Life Begins....

a reply to: ArizonaGal

young children don't typically retain memory until about three or four years old

I have to disagree with that. Memory is simply the organization of neural pathways, a process that, according to my independent research into AI, must happen as soon as sufficient multiple neurons form. This is born out by the simple observation that, after only a few weeks of neural pathway organization, and days after birth, a baby will respond differently to the mother's voice than to a strange voice. Memory pathways must be organizing in vitro for this to happen.

Our ability to quantify memory formation may be inadequate to properly determine memory formation before that point, but that does not mean it does not happen. It simply means we cannot measure it at that point.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Boadicea

Abortion itself is the termination of pregnancy by any means.

I disagree. I consider abortion as the intentional ending of a pregnancy (not necessarily a life, as occasionally a baby in vitro can literally be deceased and not expelled naturally). A miscarriage is an unintended ending of a pregnancy. The two are completely different, as in the difference between death from old age and death by murder. We, mankind, have no control over death from old age, but we do have some control over death by murder.

If there is ever going to be any form of agreement whatsoever, we must all agree first on the definitions of the words we use. That is the problem, both with your OP link and with the debate in general. If you use a different set of definitions that I do, even if we agree we have not really agreed... one of us just tricked the other with semantics.

That's why we are here... a bad Supreme Court decision that used words which were then redefined and used to abuse it, which was then ultimately struck down when opponents had too much of the abuse. We will never correct anything by repeating the same failed techniques of the past.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Boadicea

Well, a two year old requires everything from the mother as well. But we don't (so far) seem to be willing to kill two year olds because they are taxing on the mother.

We talked about "Potential", now let's talk about another P word, "Purpose". What is the "purpose" of a mother?

Without going off on tangents of all the purposes that humans have, and there are many, I would say that one of the main purposes of a female human is to give birth to the next generation. It's at least one, important purpose.

Personally, I feel that the new life trumps the life of the mother, who has already lived and reached adulthood. I would want my baby to go on to live if it was me or it. However, that's obviously an extremely difficult decision for many in our current culture and I don't really blame a mother who wants to preserve her life over her baby's. I don't expect that much from people. I would just hope that they don't nonchalantly use abortion as birth control, which is completely unnecessary.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

So, "walking, talking" is your criteria? LOL, got it.

a reply to: Annee

To this concept I would say - then don't get pregnant again.

I understand that kids are expensive and there may not be adequate time or resources to properly care for an unending train of kids popping out.

But how sad is is that with our vast intelligence, we default to just killing the kid rather than preventing the pregnancy? I mean, this is the reason that TPTB want to manage us like a wildlife population, because we don't seem able to manage ourselves and we just act like wild animals.

I know there are exceptions, but in most cases, people who can't afford another kid can prevent that with just a minimal amount of care and attention.

a reply to: Boadicea

Me too! Debate is a healthy, intellectual pursuit.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

"To become a human being in the future"? So, you have figured out the formula for what makes a human being and when? LOL

Where did you get this esoteric knowledge? Is it when they are "walking and talking", LOL

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Ok, my dude...I'm going to take some time to absorb your abrasive post and respond.

But, if you can stop insulting my intelligence for two seconds - I do have a degree in Physics (which is heavy in math and chemistry, as well). I was an engineer for 25 years. I've lived half a century and I'm also very spiritual and philosophical, though I wouldn't describe myself as "religious". So, back off with the "you're an idiot" sh*t. Thanks.

originally posted by: ArizonaGal
a reply to: Boadicea

Well, a two year old requires everything from the mother as well. But we don't (so far) seem to be willing to kill two year olds because they are taxing on the mother.

The difference is that when in uterus, only the mother can provide the necessary sustenance. Anyone can provide for a child already born.

We talked about "Potential", now let's talk about another P word, "Purpose". What is the "purpose" of a mother?

Without going off on tangents of all the purposes that humans have, and there are many, I would say that one of the main purposes of a female human is to give birth to the next generation. It's at least one, important purpose.

Hmmm...Hmm.... I have trouble with this. I would say that our reproductive systems have only that purpose but not the individual person, who must be one or the other. We are not compelled to have children nor are we guaranteed children. I certainly don't know all the divine whys or wherefores, but I do believe if that was the divine plan that would be the reality.

Personally, I feel that the new life trumps the life of the mother, who has already lived and reached adulthood. I would want my baby to go on to live if it was me or it.

And that's your choice and I'd support your right to make that choice.

But from a legal standpoint, if we deny any woman the right to make that choice for themselves, t hen it's a privilege not a right. And none of our rights are safe.

However, that's obviously an extremely difficult decision for many in our current culture and I don't really blame a mother who wants to preserve her life over her baby's. I don't expect that much from people.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how many women do accept the risks. For better and worse.

I would just hope that they don't nonchalantly use abortion as birth control, which is completely unnecessary.

That's certainly the ideal... but this is the real world.

Sadly, the women who do may very well find out the hard way that abortion -- and especially multiple abortions -- can and does have its own long-term adverse effects. Including infertility.

No one likes to talk about that.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Well, I'm not an expert on that, but perhaps I should have used the phrase "long term memory". Typically, people can't remember anything before age three. I have maybe one memory from age three, and the rest started after age four. I realize there are rare exceptions.

a reply to: ArizonaGal

This is really too stupid to reply to but your arrogance pretty much demands it.

The formula for what makes a human being. How to put this... Sometimes a man and a woman love each other very much and they want to have a family... Then they bump in to someone like you, decide not to have children and adopt a monkey instead.

Yes, to become a human being in the future. Do you think they are somehow created in the past? It begins with two cells. Those two cells begin a process that evolves over time into a human being at some point in the future. As for the exactly when part, that is what this whole discussion is about. It does not surprise me in the least that you fail to recognize that fact.

Walking and talking was a response to the absurdity of your statement regarding the potential of a 4 year old. It differentiated between a group of cells that may or may not have the potential to develop into a human being and a post birth person.

This is obviously way over your head. Your feeble lol's only serve to demonstrate my earlier suspicion that you are not mentally or emotionally mature enough for this conversation.

a reply to: ArizonaGal

Fair enough. Just wanted to point that out for accuracy.

Memory is not just being able to draw a picture of something one has seen. Many times a memory is a feeling that remembered based on sufficient similar pathway stimulation. In the case of a human child, we are actually born with a very small amount of what I term "instinctual intelligence," at least compared to other creatures. We are also born with an exceptional amount of potential memory capacity, which I call "Pavlovian intelligence," compared to other species. That is why we can learn so easily and even make complex decisions as we grow.

I think it's interesting that the human brain really does not finish development until around age 25. Until then, we tend to think short-term and fail to accurately anticipate consequences. The insurance companies knew about that long before science did; that's why car insurance rates drop drastically after age 25.

Anyway, in order to accurately research the potential to develop AI, based on the expected operation of the human brain, it was necessary for me to rigorously define certain terms... "pleasure" as in a positive feedback, "pain" as in a negative feedback, and to separate the intelligence inherent in the human brain into three classifications:

• Instinctive intelligence is neural pathways that we are born with... for example, a baby, when confronted with pain (as per my definition) will contract facial muscles and tighten the esophagus to produce a crying sound.
  
  
• Pavlovian intelligence was the brunt of my work. It consists of learned actions and their interpretation based on the pain and pleasure received as a result. For example, a drug addict has received pleasure (in this example, enhanced serotonin levels) through the use of a drug. They will then have a tendency, after multiple repetitions of this result, to find and use that same drug.
  
  
• Spiritual intelligence is beyond the scope of my work. It includes such things as imagination, planning, and intuition... those things that cannot be explained by Pavlovian intelligence.

My focus was on duplicating the operation of the human brain via electronic means. However, the research I had to do to understand the abstract operation of the brain led me to some pretty intriguing conclusions on psychology and brain development as well.

Memory, like pleasure and pain, is a much wider concept than we typically give it credit for. Without memory, the human organism could not survive; we do not possess sufficient instinctive intelligence at birth to do so. But memory also takes repetition over time and similar results to operate, meaning that even though a memory may not be cemented, it may have been in process for quite some time. Thus, it only makes sense that memory development must begin in utero in order for there to be sufficient time and repetitions to be available in any real amount upon birth. We see this in the recognition of the mother's voice shortly after birth.

I have a feeling the spiritual intelligence a person has is a applicable point to the discussion you and Boadicea are having. Unfortunately, I have very little in the way of even theoretical information on that, outside my own faith. I realized early on that this was outside the scope of my abilities to decipher. Maybe some day.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, all good points. I am kind of having an epiphany today - this goes beyond our life today in a modern country.

At some point, we have to face the fact that we are a controlled, animal population. We are used, and we are managed.

Why is it that we are even in the position to begin with, to become impregnated and have birth, and then all the subsequent stuff like raising and supporting the young. The whole process seems to me, animalistic. And, I'm told that we are animals, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I never had kids. I was guided to have career instead. In fact, I've already had my uterus removed due to fibroids.

I've just had a sort of "wakening" at age 50....I feel like I was guided in all the wrong ways. And it continues with the young people.

originally posted by: ArizonaGal
a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, all good points. I am kind of having an epiphany today - this goes beyond our life today in a modern country.

I hope it's a good kind of epiphany. It's so much bigger than us.

At some point, we have to face the fact that we are a controlled, animal population. We are used, and we are managed.

Yup.

Why is it that we are even in the position to begin with, to become impregnated and have birth, and then all the subsequent stuff like raising and supporting the young. The whole process seems to me, animalistic. And, I'm told that we are animals, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I've pondered much the same and I don't know. Especially because it is so much bigger than us. On so many levels. It can bring so much joy... or so much pain.

I never had kids. I was guided to have career instead.

I have two. In their 30s now -- but they didn't come easy! Lots can go wrong with pregnancy and become life threatening in minutes. And too many laws do not do enough to protect the mother's life even when the unborn cannot survive.

In fact, I've already had my uterus removed due to fibroids.

Been there and done that too!

I've just had a sort of "wakening" at age 50....I feel like I was guided in all the wrong ways. And it continues with the young people.

Maybe it was in the wrong way but for the right reason... maybe the best reason...

originally posted by: ArizonaGal
a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, all good points. I am kind of having an epiphany today - this goes beyond our life today in a modern country.

At some point, we have to face the fact that we are a controlled, animal population. We are used, and we are managed.

Why is it that we are even in the position to begin with, to become impregnated and have birth, and then all the subsequent stuff like raising and supporting the young. The whole process seems to me, animalistic. And, I'm told that we are animals, so I shouldn't be surprised.

I never had kids. I was guided to have career instead. In fact, I've already had my uterus removed due to fibroids.

I've just had a sort of "wakening" at age 50....I feel like I was guided in all the wrong ways. And it continues with the young people.

That makes sense to me.


My track record -- my first pregnancy was a spontaneous abortion at age 21 (married, planned pregnancy). Then had child #1 and #2.

3rd pregnancy I chose elective abortion. Circumstances were not favorable to my 2 LIVING CHILDREN to burden them with a third.

I chose the welfare of my 2 LIVING CHILDREN.

Also, uterus removed at 35 due to a separated lining.

Now raising high functioning Autistic 14 year old grandson.


It's always odd to me that I actually experienced all this in real life -- then pretty much get dismissed because I don't think the same as someone else.

Anyway, I support responsibility first.

originally posted by: randomuser
a reply to: Boadicea

“If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow."-Exodus 21:22-25.

No mention of property or slaves was referred to in this passage. It is also where we get the oft misquoted "eye for eye" saying.

If the unborn child was caused to come out prematurely because of a struggle, damages were imposed by the judges, according to the damages inflicted. No where is there mention of a person being able to retaliate. Rather the husband had to appear in court and get damages imposed by the judges. And only according to the damages inflicted. So the "eye for eye" law actually prevented an abuse of power. If the woman who aborted the child because of the struggle lost the child, or she herself died, then the culprit forfeit their life. They were to be put to death.

Pregnant woman attacked with screwdriver in NYC road rage incident, miscarries

abc7ny.com...

a reply to: sarahvital

Pregnant woman attacked with screwdriver in NYC road rage incident, miscarries

Interesting that she was three months pregnant and didn't know yet. I know that happens, but it always strikes me as odd. I'm not surprised her body would spontaneously abort after that trauma ‐- even a week later.

Apparently New York doesn't charge for harming unborn children. At least I can't find any indication they do.

I do hope no one starts demanding her medical records to prove her claim. The police will have the police report of the assault, which is public record. But her personal medical history should not be subject to public scrutiny unless she so chooses. (ETA: I'm thinking of the claims that the 10-year-old rape victim is false of course and the demands for proof.)

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: sarahvital

Pregnant woman attacked with screwdriver in NYC road rage incident, miscarries

Interesting that she was three months pregnant and didn't know yet. I know that happens, but it always strikes me as odd.

My daughter was about 5 months pregnant and didn't know it. Went to doc for pain in side. She had to make an overnight decision to keep or abort. She chose to keep - was immediately put on bed rest after Cervical cerclage surgery. He arrived around 7 months at 3 pounds.

She had been told she could not conceive. She had irregular periods -- sometimes only one every 6 months. She was overweight. It was flu season, other people had the flu.

a reply to: Annee

Oh wow. What a shock that must have been! If my math is right she gave birth only two months after finding out she was pregnant... after thinking she couldn't have babies at all. Wow.

I can't even imagine how she felt. It must have felt totally surreal to your daughter. I hope they both came thru okay.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Annee

Oh wow. What a shock that must have been! If my math is right she gave birth only two months after finding out she was pregnant... after thinking she couldn't have babies at all. Wow.

I can't even imagine how she felt. It must have felt totally surreal to your daughter. I hope they both came thru okay.

You pretty much hit it with the WOW! And, yes, we tease her about the 2-month pregnancy.

It was quite a shock.

She had kind of a last Hurrah! with an ex-fiancé that was driving through town. It 'stuck'.

Yes, both mom and son were/are good, with no lasting complications (he did spend 2 months in an incubator -- came home on Christmas Day in a red stocking).