Who betrayed Anne Frank?

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

What part did the member deny the holocaust though? I read he was questioning the authorship of Anne Frank, and I believe that’s what Britguy was saying as well. I was a bit confused about the immediate ban but idk everything behind that decision.



To be honest if the content was as horrible as it’s being made out to be I wonder why his posted content hasn’t been removed for serious terms violation, they take content down all the time so you can’t even read what was said.


We can talk about it via pm if you choose as to not derail the thread. I’m actually about ready to watch the video posted here soon now I have time to do so, so I will be back here later to talk about that.

yeah pm sent.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: Britguy

There is nothing to question here, go to Dachau it's a three hour flight from your place. Land in Munich and rent a car, drive to Dachau. Then come back and let's see if you would not support this decision then. I get it principles but exemptions solidify the rule.

I get the optics but here 6 million dead people win over the right of someones free speech when it's about denouncing them. That's just my opinion because I am very close to the history. I won't judge you not being able to see it. Go to Dachau and Auschwitz, looking at pictures isn't enough.

Well said Duck total respect to you. The whole way Germany has come out of that period is one of total respect too. I feel for the people who had nothing to do with the murders and yet somehow it was deemed right to make these innocent people feel guilty for something they had no part in. Nobody made me feel guilty for Britain raping the African continent, I don't see whu Germans should be made to carry guilt for something that was committed by another generation, one that was largely hijacked by an evil minority too (that exists in every nation / peoples / religion) which just happened on this occasion to get into power. Hats off to Germans today it had noting to do with you and indeed are one of todays Jewish people's best friends.

For sure the murders did happen. In my youth I used to dine with survivors. Litvaks, Magyars, Austrians, they all had tattoos, they all were sole or near to survivors of their original families. They told the most amazing stories of escape. Ghetto fighters, hiding out saved by Germans (yes the good were many too), even my old boss she was youngish then, a skiny red head who had survived Auschwitz of 1 years old, quite a lovely woman, bit of a temper. Sole survivor. No family. Still tattood at 1 years old! An old girl too used to tell us of life in pre war Vienna, sounded amazing to be alive pre war in Austria.

The holocaust happened for sure, everybody was being killed though not just specific religions. Total killing fields. What always struck me was the complicity of other peoples in easten Europe. Many told stories of the killings being perpetrated not by the occupiers but by the Hungarians, Poles etc. Mass killings all over by everyone and Jewish gangs taking villages and killing all the Christians. Many many dead on all sides. A holocaust for everyone, it just stands out what the Germans organised with the mass killings as it was of an industrial nature rather than old style throat cutting.

Thanks though Duck for adding to the historical record of what you have seen and experienced and never feel any form of guilt. A different generation. That was then and this is now x

Ok removed and sent to your inbox

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

If I am on the road today I will do a little extra round and make a photo of that church wall.

People speaking up against what happened were just placed there and simply shot, just like that. Not to excuse anyone but let that sink in. In front of their families to make a point.

The American ground troops that were stationed here were according to what was relayed to me very friendly. They shared sweets and bubblegum with children, some even made friendships that lasted until the US pulled out of that region. The plane fighters are a different story, they made hunt on farmers working the fields for fun for weeks after the war.

There was a huge oak tree that was still standing strong until it had to be taken down. It was split in half by a fighter planes firing at the farmers fleeing into the woods. They would hide there but the fighter pilots soon got the trick to ascend up the hill over the forest, cutting off their escape route. My grandfather had a sort of memoire, not a diary but in there he described how his brother was ripped to shreds when one of these fighter planes attacked.

The bullets ripped up the grass and fields for more than a mile on the route he was killed. But the ground soldiers were more than friendly towards the population, they enforced the curfew without mercy though. Understandable.

War is cruel.

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: TDawg61
Not from what I know about both reading, different writing styles and some differing opinions.

It should not matter. I think no one has a problem with questioning single details but I know people like these from a German board that also constantly has to fend them off. It's disgusting how 5.8-6.1 million deaths can be questioned like this.

And these are only the official numbers for the Jewish victim, there are a lot of other groups not accounted for in the official numbers. I visited both Dachau and Auschwitz and stood inside the gas chamber in Dachau, right next to the crematorium in the back of the area, hidden behind the barracks by trees.

The place makes one heavy to breath, some places like the execution wall it felt like everyone was picking up the dread about this place. I saw bones and heard stories that would give some on the more fainter side of life nightmares.

And yeah I totally recommend the two books for anyone interested. The 5 book 700-900 page Ralf Isau Circle Of The Dawn series is at times also heavy to digest around WW2 time but the story is fictional, the details are not. I even wrote an email back then to him asking if there will be a 6th book or something that would join some loose ends and even got an answer from the author (no). Well I guess I had the kid-bonus and it was AOL times!

I agree but have one tiny quibble, we accept that figure and some claim wrongly that it was lower but in fact the true figure was definitely far higher.

When he was being questioned one of the former commandants of Auschwitz is said to have estimated that under his watch about two and a half million were murdered, now that is only ONE of the former commandants there were several and while probably the biggest still only one of many camps and before the camps at least hundreds of thousands had already been killed in death van's, taken to dig there own graves in secluded forests and other early attempts at wiping them out.

So the true figure could be more than one and a half times as many so maybe more than 8 or 9 million not counting other folk's also rounded up and murdered.

Indeed the NAZI's planned to wipe out the entire Polish and as many Russian people as they could as well but never had time to get around to it since they lost the war.

None of us really know the true figure but besides the death camps other innocent's and combatants were also killed and a huge number of those were Soviets with the Soviet union having lost perhaps more than 26 million people as well, Germany despite being the main aggressor in that conflict is estimated to have only lost about eight million (not counting figures for there peacetime murder of the disabled).

It takes a special kind of Evil to commit such an atrocity, as for the Good Germans they did exist and one surprising one was Admiral Wilhelm Canaris the head of the German secret service whom while a True and Patriotic man to his nation actually secretly hated the NAZI's having seen the atrocity's they were committing but being unable to do anything else he resigned himself to sabotaging missions he had been ordered to send secret agents on, on one occasion he sent a devout young NAZI to Scotland with a long bratwurst sausage hanging out of his back pack, papers in German, a German to English translation book and so badly equipped it was a wonder he even managed to get half a mile before he was picked up, this was one way he secretly sabotaged the missions he had been ordered to send men on.

Many of his agent's were loyal to him and of course being more intelligent than the average German they could see right through the NAZI's but were also powerless to stop the corruption of there country and so he remained in his job undermining the NAZI regime from within until he was finally arrested, charged with treason and executed too late for the NAZI's to undo the damage he had already done them.

So there were definitely GOOD Germans though Good is being used subjectively here.

That said you have to remember that Hitler told his voters what he planned to do, they voted him in and so in part the German people of that period DO share in the blame for what the NAZI's perpetrated upon the world but of course not ALL German's and many Germans suffered and died under the NAZI regime, Spandau prison was a favourite for imprisoning and executing enemy's of the Reich and not counting the disabled and slow learning Germans that were undoubtedly in the millions also killed by the NAZI Eugenics policy's at least 50 thousand Enemy's of the Reich were executed by the Germans for no other reason than there political opposition to the NAZI's, German parent's became afraid of there children lest they should denounce them for speaking badly of the NAZI's or of Hitler.

But that aside the Germans did not even have to put up with rationing and there economy false as it may have been continued to flourish right up until the war turned against them.

(one of the notable hypocrisy's of the German Eugenics' program is that Hitler had he been born under it would likely have been killed off as well as a slow learner whom could not concentrate in class, it is also claimed he was incestuous with his own niece against her will and had her boyfriend murdered before he murdered her, nasty piece of work that creature - not a man but a thing - was)

The final number for the holocaust was a best estimate based on surviving records but it was known that the real figure was much higher and that so many records had been lost during the war there was no way to verify the true much higher number of victims so they had to go with a lower number they could prove.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Oh my life that is crazy Duck those poor farmers. It's just crazy and needs palcing for the historical record all sides committed the crimes. Crazy crazy days. The world gone mad. Blood letting on a crazy scale. So glad we live today. I can remeber a German lady explaining the period, she was convinced there was more to it than met the eye. She said a kind of spell was cast over the people. How normal people changed all over the place, like an evil descended, she said it was supernatural in nature. Always made me wonder if something else was at play.

Yes if you see that tree post it for the record. So vital that these things are posted by people in the know before everything on a personal basis is forgotten and just in books.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Can we really judge these pilots though? What were they thinking about the Germans, what was shown to them? If I was a fighter pilot and they showed me starving tortured children and told me this is what all Germans want...

How would I have reacted? Besides I would never be able to pull that trigger at all. The spell you talk about, it's mass psychosis partly and Hitler being a charismatic speaker hitting the right buttons. And then we all know, it went south without the population agreeing when Hitler took over completely it was way too late.

Not trying to blame or take blame from anyone, just shining a light into these corners.

The camps certainly existed. The horrific treatment of many groups, including Jews, happened there. Not only in the camps but in factories dug from the mountains, producing V2’s, Me262’s and other such hardware. We’re there some post war constructs around these things? Almost certainly. The victors always write the history that is accepted. We need to be open and not knee jerk. There is much still to learn - but the horror of what was done still screams at us from the past.

As for Anne Frank, I believe it was something created after the war. However, whether it is or isn’t matters little as it is an amazing document and speaks to the truth of those Jewish families who tried to hide out the war. It’s a great book.

Saw a video recently trying to paint George Soros as a Nazi snitch. I imagine self preservation was a prime motivator.

Anyway, as for banning people with alternative views, that doesn’t sit well with me at all. Pushing these things underground is poor form. Far better to allow these people a voice in the hope we can I ate them. Might be a fools hope, but then sometimes hope is just that.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

In the first world war a German submarine commander sank an American Liner off Ireland causing the US to come into the war because of this attack upon a civilian ship, regardless of it's cargo it was an act of evil and it is remembered for little children floating in the water drowned.

During WW2 the Germans loved to strafe caravans of refugees on the roads and to happily target civilians.

So the word I would use is Justified.

Though the bombing of Dresden is widely condemned today and even argued as a war crime (it was NOT though it was a mistake in my opinion) Bomber Harris KNEW what he was ordering and he was justified in taking that action, the Germans had to feel the pain they had caused others, the firestorm of Coventry that destroyed most of that city for example.

And it undoubtedly hit the German Psyche helping to end the war earlier than it may have.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Maybe you skipped it somewhere that I wrote the 5.8 - 6.1 million. That is depending on who you ask. Dieter Pohl or Wolfgang Benz. It looks like these are only Jewish victims though.

The other groups like political enemies, unruly Germans, disabled or retarded, homosexuals and everything not fitting into the Arian idea were killed too. So yes the numbers I used was just Jewish victims probably. It is estimated that
up to about 3% of the world population died because of WW2. That's roughly 60 million or more but it also includes soldiers.

60 million. Add 23 million and it would be like wiping out every German citizen.

About Germans voting in Hitler.
Zhat is often used but is factually incorrect. NAZI party got 37% of the votes, Socialist and Communist about 35% and the rest was fringe.

However a few month later in November 1932, they even lost about 5% down to 32%, that's a third of the population that voted. They did not even gain near absolute majority. A lot of right wing industrialist people, the small elite then jumped in on the NAZI bandwagon.

Truth is that Hitler could have never be voted into power without that 1/3 of Germans help in votes. But it wasn't their votes that secured his win. It was the right wing industrialists that now homed in on what they thought is a last chance to get rid of the communists.

a reply to: LABTECH767

1) the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. Don't get me started on this as kids and women were sent in with trains by INTENT before the bombing.
2) This is not a tit for that who is more evil.
3) Killing civilians is NEVER justified regardless what side does it. Seriously?

the Germans had to feel the pain they had caused others, the firestorm of Coventry that destroyed most of that city for example.

Bull#. Those Germans were civilians. How about bombing your hometown away because your government won't listen to you even if you spoke up?

You should listen to yourself what you spout here. You justify killing civilians for TIT FOR TAT and you justify killing civilians "so they learn". What kind of twisted mind do you posses? Regardless the country this is ALWAYS wrong.

You sound like the NAZI justifying killing Jews because of all the unjust they allegedly did to the people of the world.

That is you, look into the mirror and see someone justifying killing civilians for some "so they learn" BS. Statue an example, right?

originally posted by: ThatDamnDuckAgain
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Can we really judge these pilots though? What were they thinking about the Germans, what was shown to them? If I was a fighter pilot and they showed me starving tortured children and told me this is what all Germans want...

Spot on Duck we can't judge those times from our own perspectives. A different time.

My own grandfathers British unit would now be up for war crimes. As a Commando he was behind enemy lines in German controlled territory. When they captured Germans they killed them on the spot, no supply lines to transfer the prisoners when you're deep in enemy territory. The Commandos would round up the prisoners hand them over to the Commanding officer, next thing he'd disappear with them behind a hedge and pop pop. Total murder bullet to the head. Grandad told me most were just young kids. All that was left to defend the Reich. Kids and old men. A war crime for sure. Probably as ordered from the very top. I read somewhere about the Canadian Commandos records still being available as the order to wipe out any prisoners. Horrific. Total horrific warfare on all sides. Glad we live in the world we live in x

originally posted by: halfoldman
And when the first diaries of Ms. Frank were published, the first queer activists said, she was a lesbian.
Here I'm not so convinced.
Although at least at the time (first published 1950), the text hit the sexual revolution.

It was and still is the fashion to read the tea leaves as it were and claim every historical and literary figure is LGBT.

No doubt a few are/were, but not as many as are claimed.

And for literary figures ... it only really matters if it's necessary to the story. Otherwise, sure, it's open to interpretation and the author may have written a character from that mindset, but we otherwise don't need to know, and the mystery makes the story accessible and fun to a variety of readers.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

The plane fighters are a different story, they made hunt on farmers working the fields for fun for weeks after the war. 

Bro, that story gave me chills.

I f#king hate humanity sometimes.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

I have no time for any form of Nazi Apologists or the modern rewriting of history by both the right and the left.

The fact is I believe Bomber Harris made a justified call, it is not politically correct because YES it was a SOFT TARGET a civilian target but the Germans had been targeting soft CIVILIAN targets all along, would you rather we have nicely allowed them to surrender with no punishment at all, Churchill actually stopped Stalin from BUTCHERING and wiping out the Germans as that is what HE wanted to do and Churchill actually stormed out of the room when Roosevelt nearly allowed Stalin to do what he wanted.

So if the Germans want to accuse us of war crimes let them, blighters should know better but we do have a few stains.

The Concentration camps in which the Boar Civilians were placed without food, sanitation or water in South Africa during the Boar War is one such hideous stain and of course the massacre of the native Australians during the colonization of that continent is another one, we also did our own US Style treaty breaking with the Maori just as they did with the native American peoples whose land they stole.

After the war was over the US rounded up hundreds of thousands of German military personnel into fields with no shelter, little food or water and no sanitation that thousands died there too.

But back to Soft Target's, the Germans had used Terrorist tactics as part of there blitz Krieg attacking civilian targets to demoralize and cause the collapse of nations, in Poland they set about trying to completely destroy some Polish city's a plan they had even at the start of the war with a long term plan to completely wipe the polish out and turn it into a forest.

In France they rounded up every single man and woman in a village into the church and butchered them there, that village is an open museum and monument to those people and to all such villages, town's and city's the NAZI's destroyed during the war.

Sorry but I do not ascribe to your revisionist history and I can tell you this there are men whom fought and died in that war and men whom came home and lived with the trauma of what they had seen.

My Paternal Grandfather Edward McArdle was torpedoed THREE TIMES, after the war his best friend whom had survived at least two of those sinking's with him could not live with what he had seen and put his head into the gas oven.

You think some PRAT calling it a war crime all these years later is justified, sorry but NO they are not it was REPRISAL and well and truly justified.

OR what about Our Will, Flt Lt William Beverley my mothers cousin on her Paternal side, shot down and his body never recovered fighting Germans to protect OUR civilians over the UK or so many other members of my family, two of them not even in the army walking down the street in Liverpool and a bomb fell on the head of one of them blowing him to smithereens' and leaving nothing for his brother whom was unharmed despite standing right beside him as they walked together to find.

OUR money was taken by the Yank's after the war and used to build west German up and they laughed at us with our broken infrastructure and war debt to the US, a war debt they never had to pay a penny for despite being the culprits of WW2.

That generation whom knew this are nearly gone and it is your and other newer generations that are pissing on the truth, oh it was a bad war crime boo hoo tell that to the million's they butchered and worse remember that the west Germans were given a Pat on the Back by the US after the war and lot's and lot's of English money we had to pay the US to rebuild there nation while we were left with bombed out warehouses and derelict factory's.

I will tell you another story, Karin a German Liverpudlian whom was a really nice person and a big six foot blond German lady with a Scouse Accent who had been adopted as a war orphan after the war by a British Soldier was on her way to see her brother whom she had found out was alive and she overheard the German sailors on that ferry (back in the 70's) talking about poisoning the British Reservoirs and making us all dumb and infertile - it was probably just banter but she despite being really a German took severe offence to this so she walked over and KNOCKED out the biggest of these sailors - Karin a friend of my mother was like that - the Purser arrested her on the ship and locked her in the pursers office until they docked, the authority's on shore would NOT let her disembark to go and see her brother so she had to come back to England and when she was passed to the British Police they heard the story, shook her hand and let her go.

You don't know half.

My friend's father was another German War Orphan, I don't hate the Germans, I hate the NAZI's but I recognize that despite it being unpalatable to you and oh so many others and while it was wrong and yes many innocent's died WRONGLY as it should have been military targets in my opinion it was still justified and NOT the war crime it has been called by MODERN revisionists whom were not born or have any understanding of the sentiments of that generation.

a reply to: LABTECH767
I responded to you saying these war crimes are okay and necessary.

You completely went off a tangent about how I accuse other countries of war crimes. But before that you hint on NAZI appologetism WTF?

That's the elephant in the room.

I have no time for any form of Nazi Apologists or the modern rewriting of history by both the right and the left.

Yet you have the time to write a WOT that size that I just overflew. Again, you went down a tangent and now you call me NAZI appologetist. After you told the world that these war crimes were necessary and somehow justified.

Therefor I have zero interest reading all your anecdotal stories, I do not care a bit. Because what you accuse me of is not the truth and like some rabbid dog you bite yourself in there and went further and further away from what we were discussing.

Last thing standing was you saying that the bombing of Dresden was kind of okay. I tell you they sent in children an woman because my Grandmother on my fathers side was in one of those trains. They only survived because the train stopped because the rail tracks were damaged.

And you tell me that was okay and necessary then you are a cruel person and according to your own god will rot in hell for eternity.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Nope I won't, I am also part Jewish on my mothers maternal line so according to the valley of Dry Bones, well let's say you could not be more wrong.

Sorry about going off on one with you though you are NOT an apologist I just got hot under the collar as have you and because I was wrong on that and KNOW that I was I would if I could delete that former comment, I stand by it though but not that part obviously.

It's just a topic that gets so very many of us VERY angry indeed.

You know I for one do not believe in all that reincarnation malarkey but I can tell you I had a very vivid experience as if I was there and not the first of it's kind in my life, I was flying disembodied the way you do and into this young boy's head (about 12 years of age) through the crown of his head and he was wearing a Jewish Cap, a Kippa or something not sure how to spell that and suddenly I WAS HIM, I could not tell you the year but judging by the clothing the 1930's or 40's, I could not tell you were other than the apartment was one of those old ones with very high ceiling's and a chandelier in the room, there was a lady in her late 30's or early 40's though she looked wearied by the world and afraid standing there helpless in the room whom I knew was this boy's mother and near to her a younger woman in her late teen's holding another girl under ten very close both full of fear, they were coming for us and with my father, uncles and brothers already dead or unable to help us that made me the man of the house so what is a young boy to do, I heard the lorry stop outside and ran out of the apartment holding the ornamental wrought iron balustrade as I ran down the stairs toward a man whom was coming up them, he had mousy brown hair and a brown trench coat on, I threw myself at him feet first despite him being twice my mass nocking him down the stairs and landing on him, I struggled for a few moments and tried to get him despite his bigger frame in a head lock hanging onto his back but soon bled out as my strength failed me, I was saying No, NO, NOO desperately as he pulled away unable to make my body work any longer and saw him walk up the stairs as if nothing had happened to deal with my sisters and mother.

Now that was NOT my Life but I remain convinced it was real, it was probably a member of my Family on my mothers side whom shared it with me from the spirit though I am loath to suggest this as it goes against my Christian beliefs but not entirely, it was just a week before my mother collapsed her cancer having gotten the better of her.

I would say looking at the architecture of the inside and the little bit outside the city was probably Prague or Warsaw but of course I do not know.

What I do know is God is real and if you are going to see anyone in that lake of fire other than the devil it will be Hitler probably right beside Stalin and Mao (though Stalin was a paranoid mentally ill man so just maybe he will have more mercy than that the other two though were unrepentantly evil).

If I offended you though I am sorry, I got hot and bothered.

So you are saying I got that wrong:

Though the bombing of Dresden is widely condemned today and even argued as a war crime (it was NOT though it was a mistake in my opinion) Bomber Harris KNEW what he was ordering and he was justified in taking that action, the Germans had to feel the pain they had caused others,

Don't you, in that above quote say that civilians need to be punished with war crimes so "they" feel the pain "they" had caused to others.

Isn't it more like, one military hurts civilians and then the other one pays back doing the same? How in your mind can you justify something like this? You should know the civilians are not at fault for it.

And if you blame passiveness, where is your outrage about US citizens keeping silent/supporting the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Guess they had to feel the pain too?