Is Christ God.

I know this is not the thread for this but I often wonder if perhaps our world has been before, perhaps an infinite number of times, not repeated but recreated with tiny variations that only someone stepping from one earth from a time before to a new earth in a new creation would ever notice and then only if they were paying attention.

Is the father Jesus from a previous creation, is He in his father from before that and will our Jesus also called the everlasting father also become the father only to send HIS Jesus in that coming creation to endure and eventually become as he is.

Is creation based on a plan that is tried and tested even down to the devil whom then presumably will go into the lake of fire only to find that before him was him and they are all below him in the lake of fire one atop another because all he really was when all is said and done was a tool that fulfilled a part of a plan we can not even comprehend.

Do we ever go back into God or do we spend eternity among an infinite number of eternity's that only God can comprehend and whose subtle differences are enough to create an infinite diversity while still adhering to a perfect plan.

Of course this is NOT in any part of the bible except perhaps were it says there is nothing new under the sun but since creation includes the sun that would kind of exclude this strange idea.

Anyway something to chew on and think about, and what then would it mean about the greater nature of God and indeed about our own, we are unique and yet even in a free system that is not set on the rails he knows everything we will do and of course every variation on what we will do, so has he known each and every one of us before in infinite detail and infinite variation?.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Sole is a fish, a place, on the bottom of one's foot, no other witness as in alone.
sol is another name for the local star.
soul is a concept of a benevolent ghost or spirit that inhabits or possesses as well as a form of music and a form of food.

Too many things too many things just on hearing.

originally posted by: SentientBunnySuit

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Deetermined

Context again
Final part of the chapter

through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.

How can he be at the right hand of God and gain new found power given to him by God if he is God, that makes no sense at all.

I think it's really amazing that in almost every quoted scripture there are often within the same chapter a verse that counters the very point you are trying to make, almost like God knew this would be a serious problem in the last days when people would be allowed to read and analyze the bible free from the Church's oppressive dogmatic tyranny.

Is the Bible allegory? Have you ever talked to yourself? Because the passage you quote, if taken literally, implies God has a favored hand, which implies the other hand is less favored. Is God's left hand less perfect than God's right? Or is God using human concepts our hunter gatherer brains can grasp to convey the Devine that we can't?

Well, If I had dollar for every time this topic regresses to the point of we can't understand it, it's a mystery beyond our human comprehension I would be rich.
All I can do is warn you your ideological belief is like you being in house on fire, I am telling you need to get out of there, but only you can extract yourself from it.
Here is the scripture I always use when the topic has come full circle and there is nothing more I can do.
Romans 10:2 Amplified version

For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes].

Also it is helpful to be like the Berean Christians not locked in to dogma established by a bunch of old men over a millennia ago that never had God's Holy Spirit after all the apostles had died.
Act 17:11

The people of Berea were more open-minded than the people of Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive God's message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

All I can do is warn you your ideological belief is like you being in house on fire, I am telling you need to get out of there, but only you can extract yourself from it.

Really, Blue Jay? You think this topic boils down to a salvation issue?

It's not like we've taken Judaism to the opposite extreme and declared Jesus the only God without the Father. The two are obviously dependent on each other. The Father is full of wisdom, knowledge and power while the he gets all of his physical handy work done and voice heard through the Son. The two function together as one. The terms "God" and "LORD/Lord" are often used interchangeably if you truly study it. You leave one out and the whole thing falls apart, or as the Bible would say, wouldn't consist or hold together. That's why they both claim to be the Alpha & Omega, the First and the Last.

The only thing I don't understand is why it's so easy for people to believe (or say they believe) that we have an infinite and all powerful God that's capable of knowing every last detail of our being, hear every one of our prayers and thoughts, is capable of being everywhere at once, yet can't imagine how he could reside in heaven yet walk the earth in the flesh at the same time. God defies all time, space, and physics. Although, the Father obviously chose not to overstep certain laws of our physical world in the way he communicated with Jesus and in the way that Jesus was allowed to live a human life with certain limitations and understanding, just like us.

Christ/Savior in hebrew is Machiach and Jesus in hebrew is Yahoshua, written YHVSAY letters Yod He Vav Shin Ayin
His Father name is written YHVA Yod He Vav he

now lets look at the letters more details; Yod = Hand, He = Behold, Vav = Nail, He = Behold, this have been translated as God is the Savior, to me it also points out clearly that even in Fathers name is the message about his only begotten Son and the sacrifice.

Then in his Son name Jesus, Yahoshua or YHVSAY his hebrew letters starts same as the Fathers Yod = Hand, He = Behold, Vav = Nail...then continues different, Shin = Teeth, Ayin = Eye. this can be translated as Son of God is the savior from the tooth for tooth and eye of eye law.

Then more hints:
Alpha & Omega = greek
Alef Tav = hebrew
First & Last = english
A Z = english

Alef = Strength, God, First
Tav = Mark, Covenant, Cross, Last

Old testament 3 times God says:
Isaiah 41:4
"I, the LORD, am the first, and the with the last. I am He."
Isaiah 44:6
"I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me"
Isaiah 48:12
"I am the first, I am also the last.

New testament God says:
Revelation 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega,"
Revelation 21:6
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."
Revelation 2:8
"The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life,"

Revelation 1:17-18
17 When i saw Him, i fell at His feet like a dead man.
And He placed His right hand on me, saying,
"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold,
I am alive forevermore,
and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Check out youtube channel John Kostik for much more amazing details and proofs

Edit: Oh yeah even the first word in the whole bible have similar inside message, we know in english bible starts as In beginning but in hebrew the word is Beresheet, written: Bet Resh Alef Shin Yud Tau > Tent Face God Teeth Hand Cross < Son of God saves on the cross >consider also the new testament John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -and also the Genesis 11 (point: mankind had one language and speech)

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

originally posted by: SentientBunnySuit

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Deetermined

Context again
Final part of the chapter

through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.

How can he be at the right hand of God and gain new found power given to him by God if he is God, that makes no sense at all.

I think it's really amazing that in almost every quoted scripture there are often within the same chapter a verse that counters the very point you are trying to make, almost like God knew this would be a serious problem in the last days when people would be allowed to read and analyze the bible free from the Church's oppressive dogmatic tyranny.

Is the Bible allegory? Have you ever talked to yourself? Because the passage you quote, if taken literally, implies God has a favored hand, which implies the other hand is less favored. Is God's left hand less perfect than God's right? Or is God using human concepts our hunter gatherer brains can grasp to convey the Devine that we can't?

Well, If I had dollar for every time this topic regresses to the point of we can't understand it, it's a mystery beyond our human comprehension I would be rich.
All I can do is warn you your ideological belief is like you being in house on fire, I am telling you need to get out of there, but only you can extract yourself from it.
Here is the scripture I always use when the topic has come full circle and there is nothing more I can do.
Romans 10:2 Amplified version

For I testify about them that they have a certain enthusiasm for God, but not in accordance with [correct and vital] knowledge [about Him and His purposes].

Also it is helpful to be like the Berean Christians not locked in to dogma established by a bunch of old men over a millennia ago that never had God's Holy Spirit after all the apostles had died.
Act 17:11

The people of Berea were more open-minded than the people of Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive God's message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

I'm firm in my belief that at the end, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If that happens, I'm right. If it doesn't, I'm wrong. I've bet my life that I'm right. But it's not up to me. What God believes about Himself matters, nothing else.

You guys should also think about why Jesus prayed so much to God, why?
That wasn't just for show as an example, he really needed help from God.

Luke 22:44 is one example

Jesus was in great pain and prayed so sincerely that his sweat fell to the ground like drops of blood.

With the literal emotional weight of the world and it's salvation on his shoulders at that moment, God would not be praying to himself for help, it would already be within him.
But it wasn't within Jesus, but he asked for it and received it from his Father in heaven.

God the Father, Jesus the Son , The Holy Spirit all 3 are the WORD of GOD....and you cannot separate their identities because they all 3 worked as ONE WORD.....3 separate identities of God all saying the exact same thing. Like I said before.. God the Father who Jesus prayed to.. God the Father who created the virgin miracle birth.. after that was done...The Word Of Jesus Christ was taught to the Jews and the Gentiles. The power of miracles where given to Jesus Christ in flesh and the Holy Spirit. After Jesus died on the cross He full-filled the laws of the 10 commandments when He was nailed on the Cross because He knew that He had to change the laws or all of us still would be under lawlessness. Why Jesus told His disciples to go unto the world and spread the good news which still is going powerful today.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

With the literal emotional weight of the world and it's salvation on his shoulders at that moment, God would not be praying to himself for help, it would already be within him.

But it wasn't within Jesus, but he asked for it and received it from his Father in heaven.

Hebrews 2:9-10, 16-18

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It doesn’t matter, what matters is what I can learn from his teachings!
Love all Respect all ✌️

Another point of consideration is did God have the "human" experience or just Jesus?
Certainly in a way vicariously he did through Jesus, but God never felt human pain or cried physical tears or had the biological functions of a human. He would be acutely aware of everything his son experienced but he himself was not physically going through it as he was still in the spiritual realm.
This gives Jesus a very unique perspective of humanity.

He also received special honor from God when he went back to heaven.
The equivalent of basically a spiritual medal for services rendered to God and the entire universe.
Philippians 2:9-11

9Therefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So every knee should bow in respect to Jesus for who he is and what he did; but the glory goes to his Dad.
That split of the power dynamic between them is important to see and understand.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

So every knee should bow in respect to Jesus for who he is and what he did; but the glory goes to his Dad.
That split of the power dynamic between them is important to see and understand.

John 12:44-45

44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

John 13:31-32

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

JESUS IS THE IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD!

2 Corinthians 4:4, 6

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In almost no discussion of the Trinity is this brought up, the flaw in most thinking and definition of the Trinity.

So we have God the Father, God the Son...and the Holy Spirit. But wait, there's more! The Revelation states that there are SEVEN Spirits of God, and it says it not once, but four times: Revelation 1:4-5, 3:1, 4:5 and 5:6.

Therefore, I propose Father + Son + 7 Spirits = a Ninefold Godhead - a Trinity of Trinities.

You can scan the whole Bible, where those Spirits are named...or google it, or bing it, or whatever.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So, what are your thoughts?

Doesn't Revelation 3:1-3 kind of give it away?

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Sound familiar?


Matthew 24:43-44

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: SeaWorthy
This is a situation where people have already done the work, going carefully through the WHOLE Bible, and sorting out the implications about the relationship between Father and Son. Going back to the old topics and arguing them through again seems to me to be a re-invention of the wheel, a waste of time akin to saying "I won't use this carefully surveyed and updated published map, I will go out and walk the countryside and make my own". There is a point where the obsessive individualism of the modern day ceases to be sensible.

For the basic doctrine, we only have to look at John ch1, which clearly identifies someone who was on the "Creator" side of the boundary between Creator and creation, and then "became man".

Absolutely 💯% agree
👍

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Even amongst themselves the Apostles argued and they loved one another and knew one another as brothers in Christ as well as knowing the Lord himself having walked with him after he called them.

An argument could be made we are all partially divine but if we give in to evil we insult that divinity, God gave us life from himself when he breathed it into us and gave us our soul's.

But to say that would invite fallacy and error since believe in ones own divinity would breed pride and worse within us unlike the perfect man Jesus.

Why was Jesus the NEW ADAM and the Perfect Man.

He Obeyed the father and could not and would not disobey him, you can't disobey yourself.

Man was created in God's image and yet in this world it is corrupted and can only be made whole in the life to come through Jesus.

He is the Word of God, with God in the beginning before all creation was made, before the Angels were created even and many of them are as God's to us though before God they are simply other children, most often more obedient and faithful children than we are but still our brethren and NOT our servants as some preach, at least no more than a big brother is to his little brother.

In the book of Revelation the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last is equated with Christ but Christ is separate from even him in that he is there always before his father still crucified for our sakes, of course since Time is not the same there he may indeed be the same being or he may be separate from the Alpha and the Omega whom may be the first into creation and out of it while the Word is always and was there before creation as well as after it and when he spoke of Abraham he said "Before Abraham was I am", not I was but I am.

When Moshe (Moses) asked the burning bush whom he was he replied "I AM" or in many versions "I AM that I AM".

We can only come to the father THROUGH Yeshua, if we see the father in Yeshua we see the father though the Father is also separate and while he was not seen by the apostles at the transfiguration on the mount he was present within a shining cloud and said "BEHOLD MY SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED".

The entire argument about the divinity of Christ resolves around a dispute over his actual nature, is he created or is he NOT created.

Well the word was BEFORE creation with God and also WAS/IS God, creation was made THROUGH the word and creation can only come back to it's creator THROUGH the word, the Word is Jesus whom is GOD whom became man and suffered for us.

The father is in him in a way we can not understand and only HE alone has ever seen the Father directly.

It is enough to accept that we see them as three the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit and as ONE in the unity of the Holy Trinity but God's nature is infinitely beyond anything we can comprehend, there are seven spirits that issue from the throne of God as well and countless angels more powerful than the wild imaginings of the pagan religions and there power comes from God as well.

It is enough for me to say I can not define God except that I believe he is real, he is the trinity, he cares about each and every one of us and he has called us home, I want to follow the shepherds voice but am like a sheep trapped in a ravine, I believe in him and hope that he will come soon and he said he will but I am also aware that there are wolves prowling, sometimes a lost sheep think's that it is a lion and sometimes that is enough to give a wolf pause but in the end only the good shepherd can lead us, if we really must know and only if he decides it is good for us too know then we may ask him.

To know God is a wonderful thing but it is also a terrible burden, those whom get too close reject this world and often starve themselves to death in an act of mortifying the flesh as they seek to get closer to the lord and to go home, early Christians sang in joy as they were marched into the Amphitheatres to be fed to wild animal's, not all many broke under the horror of certain death but those with enough faith saw it as a doorway for they were dying for there Lord and this had many early Christians wrongly regarded as a death cult by there Roman Persecutors.

They were closer to the truth than we are, had heard it from people whom had heard it from the apostles or indeed from the apostles themselves and the many letters that were written down were often done so to hide and to preserve the knowledge in the face of there terrible persecution.

They had the faith we have lost.

Is it not enough to accept that Christ died for us, that he is God made man.

Why are those persecutors still trying to murder the soul of Christianity even today, are they always going to be here until the Lord return's.

They will and it is evil Spiritual powers which we are at war with whether we know it or not that move within the hearts and minds creating doubt, controlling our leaders in politics and creating strife among mankind as they separate the sheep from the flock so that as wolves they may prey upon them, like rustlers lead them into false religions like Islam and destroy them.

But we have a Shepherd, a King, a God whom is stronger than they, whom has defeated even death itself, something no creature could do but the creator can.

Well said!!!

Does anyone have a problem that the current Bible has been manipulated for political reasons. And whole sections of the bible have been thrown out or changed.

faculty.wts.edu...

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: LetTheColdCome

originally posted by: Akragon
Im reluctant to involve myself in these debate anymore... that part of my life is behind me though im compelled to add my two cents... its still hard to resist lol

All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and earth.... Mat 28

IF said power was given to him, there IS clearly a greater power then himself...

He also establishes his submission to the Father saying specifically that the Father is greater then himself, and further more he can do nothing OF himself but it is the Father that does the work

Also as previously stated above.... there is NO trinity in the bible...

1 John 5:7 is the only passage that actually has the trinitarian formula... and it doesn't appear in any of the earliest greek texts that exist.

said trinity has one to believe all three parts of the "godhead" are equal... though as i've already said, Jesus maintains he is NOT equal to the Father...

Even Paul in his opening greetings in his books seems to remove the "holy spirit" from them so Paul knows nothing about the holy spirit being equal to God or Jesus

And Revelation, the last book added to the bible... happen to come along after they established the trinity as standard procedure in Christian beliefs... In my opinion it was added to give weight to the idea that Jesus was God because it states it very clearly

Thus... the trinity is a lie...

Jesus is not, and never considered himself God

Paul, the author of Philippians 2:6, claims the direct antithetical position to what you claim in your post.

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

which directly contradicts what Jesus actually said... red letter

Good ol Paul... wrong answer bud

6: Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7: Instead, he gave up his divine privileges
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8: he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

Jesus's Christ was 100% GOD & 100% man

Just because most can't understand & comprehend "the trinity"...

Does not make it a lie...

Jesus came not juat to save us from ours sins & eternal separation from GOD...

But he also came to teach us how to live...
and how to treat & love one another
To show us how to truly be good, humble, selfless, caring, righteous people in every way of life...

GOD the Father = GOD in the Heaven of Heavens (unknown form)
GOD the Son = GOD in flesh (human form)
GOD the holy spirit = GOD in us (spirit form)

Let me ask you this... Can any other mear "man"...
do the things Jesus Christ did...? No I think not...

No man except Jesus Christ could...

Walk on water...
Turn water into wine...
Heal the sick, crippled & blind...
Bring the dead back to life...
Be resurrected from the dead himself...

That's Just to name a few things...

Or how about...
just about the hardiest thing's for... just any "regular" man to do......
Turn the other cheek...
Or Forgive there enemies...
Or Sacrifice there life, for a stranger's...

At the end of John it says...

John 21: 25
25: Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

No I think it's clear to see Jesus Christ was no regular man...
He was/is GOD in the flesh...
Because no man ever has or ever will come close to to the life of Jesus Christ...
that's why to this day, even after 2000+ years since he walked this earth. Jesus Christ still is the most famous, most loved, & most hated individual to have ever existed...
always will be...

originally posted by: olaru12
Does anyone have a problem that the current Bible has been manipulated for political reasons. And whole sections of the bible have been thrown out or changed.

faculty.wts.edu...

No... because the Apocrypha is not the same as the Canon scriptural manuscripts...

They don't fit the narrative of the Canon...

The Apocrypha was not even found in the same time period or locations as the (Canon) ancient scriptural manuscripts...

They are not as reliable... nowhere near as reliable...
Hince, the reason they was left out... Simple as that...

the current Bible has been manipulated for political reasons.

Other then the (Apocrypha)...
What has been manipulated in the current Bible?
Just curious of your opinion...