What Is Proper Cause?

All gun laws are infringements.

Do the criminals have to prove "Proper Cause" before they carry, or do they just ignore the law?

"Shall not be infringed." is fairly plain language.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Not posting to change your mind.
Just happy to give you a star and a flag!

a reply to: Sookiechacha

I don't see why anyone would need to explain why they want to exercise any constitutional right to the government.

Star for you.
We are in agreement about this!
Nice thread!

First let me say an excellent and well worded question. “Proper Cause” is a wiggle word. Going straight to the form we see that if you are not in your home, or store as a shopkeeper nor a banking employee, prison staff then you have to have “proper cause” and not wanting to be raped and murdered isn’t a good enough excuse.

The very big problem is that since NY wanted to play games, CA and about seven other states might have their laws over turned and that a CCW issued by any other state will be de facto legal in all 50 states just like drivers licenses and marriage licenses already are.

Or as some states put it “Constitutional Carry” becomes legal in all 50 states.

Funny thing about the NY permit is I didn’t notice things like Safety Training like in other states that already recognize other State’s issuance of permits. Such as Ohio and Tennessee recognize each other’s CCW because there is some sort of training involved such as “don’t shoot the camera operator and director on a movie set with a loaded gun.” And when having an ill-advised press conference, don’t tell your wife to shut up in a harsh tone that makes you sound like a serial killer.

Personally, I would like those that wish to CCW to be trained rather than just be 18 (or 21, although that is technically struck down by SCOTUS). So I would rather full 50 state license. But absent that, Constitutional Carry works as well.

Proper Cause…due to the number of LEO removed from duty due to lack of vax mandate compliance, I need a firearm for my own defense and for the general protection of the public, especially school children that may be lacking resource officers now. Let them eat on their own hubris a moment.

a reply to: Ahabstar

Personally I agree about "safety training", but, I don't want it to be made mandatory.

As past history has shown, there are those who will do anything to remove your ability to own firearms. These are not just anti-gun activists, but Government Officials. There are State Attorney Generals trying to sue gun manufacturers because criminals use guns that they manufactured in crimes. There is a Federal law covering the manufacturers, but, they are trying to find ways around it.

Here's a scenario. Your State legalizers CCP's, but, you have to take "safety training". Originally the "safety training" consists of an hour of classroom training on weapon safety and the laws on concealed carry, plus an hour of range time for you to show that you know the basics. It costs about $25 and you bring your own ammo.

After an election cycle, the Government changes to an anti-gun majority. They decide to get rid of concealed carry, but, a Judge says that they can't. So what to they do, they change the requirements for "safety training". Now it becomes 40 hours of instruction, 8 hours of range time and costs $1200. When people complain, the Government says "We didn't end concealed carry, so shut up!"

Well some gun clubs have members volunteer to provide the training and they do fund raisers to cover the expenses, so people once again start applying for or renewing their permits. Well the anti-gun people in the Government say "We can't have that." so they change the definition of "safety training" again. Now you have to have "certified, insured instructors". Now it costs a person $5,000 to become a "Certified Instructor" and another $5,000 per year in insurance. Still groups raise money to get volunteers certified and insured. Once again the anti-gun people don't like it. Now they pass a law that the Instructor and the training facility (the gun clubs) can be held civilly liable if someone they trained violates a gun law.

Once you give a little, the "by any means necessary" crowd will just keep pushing and pushing.

a reply to: Ahabstar

HAHA

I've been looking at that form since you posted its link, and for the life of me...it's like a circular maze that begs for bribes and/or political promises. That's the only way out, that I can see.

SCOTUS needs to strike this down. Let the dominos fall in the spectacular pattern, in which they were laid.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

The major issue is the 'may' part. In New Jersey, where we have about 9,000,000 residents, there are typically less than 1,000 issued each year. It's nearly impossible to get one here.

a reply to: Sookiechacha
In the top section I would write in the text of the Second Amendment.

In the lower section I would write in "The Constitution of the United States"

a reply to: JIMC5499

I'd guess it's applications like you suggest that got the Supreme Court's attention.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

That may be. I have little confidence in them doing anything about it.

a reply to: JIMC5499

IDK, I'm hopeful.

Roberts made a related point in his questioning of Fletcher. He told Fletcher that, with other constitutional rights, the Constitution “gives you that right, and if someone’s going to take it away from you, they have to justify it.” Why, Roberts asked, should citizens need to prove that they are entitled to – or have a special need to – exercise their constitutional right to carry guns outside the home for self-defense?

Fletcher stood firm, telling Roberts that such an argument “assumes the conclusion.” The very question in the case, he said, is whether the Second Amendment guarantees the right to carry a handgun for self-defense without a demonstrated need to do so.

But Roberts was still skeptical. No matter what the right is, he responded, “it would be surprising to have it depend upon a permit system. You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment right are limited, but the idea that you need a license to exercise the right, I think, is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights.”

On the other hand...

Justice Brett Kavanaugh stressed that the question before the court is limited to the constitutionality of the New York permitting regime. He asked Clement whether his clients would object to the “shall issue” regimes used in other states, under which authorities are required to issue a carry permit as long as an applicant satisfies basic requirements such as a background check and firearms training. Clement acknowledged that, as a general matter, they would not object. “We’d like what they’re having,” he said.

www.scotusblog.com...

Meh...That still doesn't resolve the circular maze the applicant has to solve, in order to prove they deserve to exercise their constitutional right.

a reply to: JIMC5499

When I did my CCW class, we had to go to the range and fire 25 shots. Hitting the target was easy. The point of the shooting was to verify that the person had enough sense to use gun safety, and use their weapon without shooting themselves or the instructor. I think anyone who plans to carry, should demonstrate weapons proficiency. It's a safety check that makes total sense. (IMHO)

originally posted by: network dude
When I did my CCW class, we had to go to the range and fire 25 shots. Hitting the target was easy. The point of the shooting was to verify that the person had enough sense to use gun safety, and use their weapon without shooting themselves or the instructor. I think anyone who plans to carry, should demonstrate weapons proficiency. It's a safety check that makes total sense. (IMHO)

As long as you don't go to the Baldwin School of Firearms Safety you should be fine.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

is that the one where you know the guy handing you the weapon is truthful, and checking the gun for live rounds is optional? If so, sign me up!

a reply to: network dude

I'm in agreement. For the reasons I've stated, I don't want it to be a mandatory requirement. Where I live, the County Shariff's Office handles CC permits. We are NOT required to have "safety training" to obtain a permit. When you are applying, the person handling your application will ask you a few questions and if they think it's necessary, they will recommend that you go to one of the seminars at one of the local Hunting and Fishing Clubs. It will NOT hold up your application. I belong to one of the Clubs. We had eight people show up last Saturday asking about the training. There was enough of us there, that we gave the class right then and there even though it wasn't scheduled. Several years ago we had a lousy Sheriff and a DA who believed that there was no such thing as self-defense. They started doing what I mentioned in my other post. Word got out and they were removed from office.

originally posted by: network dude
is that the one where you know the guy handing you the weapon is truthful, and checking the gun for live rounds is optional? If so, sign me up!

Yup, and then you quick draw it, point it at people and go *pew* *pew*.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I don't think there's going to be criminal charges. The CIVIL lawsuit on the other hand is going to be interesting.

a reply to: JIMC5499

Maybe on the criminal, it sounds like they were playing fast and loose with industry-mandated safety requirements.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Exactly. How do you not allow the Armorer on the set when a "weapon" is in the scene? Don't give me the COVID BS. I'd be curious to know how their pay system works. Does she get paid when only on the set? Then there's the whole "live ammunition" being on the set. From my understanding the pistol didn't use common ammunition. You couldn't just run over to Walmart and buy a few boxes.

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Exactly. How do you not allow the Armorer on the set when a "weapon" is in the scene? Don't give me the COVID BS. I'd be curious to know how their pay system works. Does she get paid when only on the set? Then there's the whole "live ammunition" being on the set. From my understanding the pistol didn't use common ammunition. You couldn't just run over to Walmart and buy a few boxes.

you can get it, but it's high dollar and scarce.
www.opticsplanet.com...
almost $2 a round. I'd have brought a little .22lr for plinking, being the budget guy I am.