Universe 25 and why its over

Here we have an interesting experiment back in the seventies. The inhabitants living in Suburbia were mice, they had all their needs met. Food water and enough living space. Their "Civilisation" went through defined stages. The experiment was done a few times always with the same outcome. The conclusions seem to suggest there is a finite timeline with regards to civilization pressures, where the personality of these mice changed before the collapse stage, The feminized males were only interested in grooming. The females losing interest in their young. and refusing to breed. If this is a system playout that affects all life on earth we could do well to take heed.

I seem to remember that video as it is quoted in some of the Eugenics literature . Thanks for posting as many of the behaviors of the mice and rats is on full display today with humans in many societies, IMO. S&F

I wonder why I keep seeing reference to this from several sources in the past few months? Feels like propaganda for the eugenicists.

Find me a single valid replication of this experiment.

a reply to: loam


It was repeated a few times. Same results. Granted it was a closed system just like we have now. It seems to be what the consequences are for social biology in a closed system.

a reply to: anonentity

When? How?

Provide links to the published papers, other than Kessler in 1966 and Hammock in 1971, whose experiments were not exactly the same as Calhoun's and did not replicate the results.

Bad science being used as propaganda.

a reply to: loam

Well I was posting that too not long ago. Must be a sad world you live in when everytime somebody finds something interesting you suspect a sinister agenda.

And it is interesting because we always thought civilisations collapse because of some sort of pressure, drought or war or...
It's a fine analogy about the devolution of the Western World I think, we got everything and yet birthrates decline, people are getting dumber, more and more people retreat from sex and society, you can see parallels...

on tiktok

And of course with humans we're not calling it 'behavioural sink' or 'beautiful ones' but (you can trust the Japanese on that) there's a word for it 'Hikikomori'

a reply to: loam

Good god man its a piece of science that just proves common sense. the same thing happened in Rome, It's just what happens in societies human or otherwise; that reach redundancy. Half the population starts wondering what toilet to use. and the other half are stressed and self-destructive.

It's already visible in Europe where the number of children per couple is below 2.

Although that's a slightly different mechanism, abundance is there but the lowering of births is not because of overpopulation, but experience life and make a career.

Only grooming/having many partners and not wanting children seems to get more common too.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain
I gotta say, as far as having children goes, I can see why people would choose not to bring another life into the world.
It's not the worst time to be alive. But it certainly isnt the best and doesn't appear to be getting any better.

I remember hearing about this a looong time go.Link

At the peak population, most mice spent every living second in the company of hundreds of other mice. They gathered in the main squares, waiting to be fed and occasionally attacking each other. Few females carried pregnancies to term, and the ones that did seemed to simply forget about their babies. They'd move half their litter away from danger and forget the rest. Sometimes they'd drop and abandon a baby while they were carrying it. The few secluded spaces housed a population Calhoun called, "the beautiful ones." Generally guarded by one male, the females—and few males—inside the space didn't breed or fight or do anything but eat and groom and sleep. When the population started declining the beautiful ones were spared from violence and death, but had completely lost touch with social behaviors, including having sex or caring for their young.

Study
Made me curious about any other studies and on other specie such as primates, but only found this bit, with similar reporting.

Aggression was not significantly more prevalent in high-density environments, but something else was: coping behavior, such as mutual grooming, rapid reconciliation after fights and the use of specific facial expressions that indicate a desire to avoid trouble.

source
Interesting that an effort to avoid violence emerged, but instinct, whether individual or collective actually was used in this case to reduce stress, which could help assure continued propagation I suppose. Yes I can see similarities in some social sects but we as humans have access to substances also as one of our stress reducers, with lasting effects. The grooming or selfish behavior does seem on the rise and social media only amplifies that. I wonder if apathy could be a result of this overcrowding too. Some of the more congested areas of India or China may yield better examples of over social crowding. Makes me think of Japan and their issue with young men not dating and playing too many vid games.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: loam

Well I was posting that too not long ago. Must be a sad world you live in when everytime somebody finds something interesting you suspect a sinister agenda.

'Something interesting' is not the same thing as good science. I'm willing to bet I've done more reading on Calhoun's 'science' than you have.

What's sad is a world where people, in order to push their political agenda, will grasp at anything to hoodwink others to support their wrong-headed thinking.

Calhoun's work is almost completely unpublished. What he did publish is often misquoted or purposefully misstated. But you'll blindly accept these misquoted conclusions, because, you know, someone called it science. LOL.

Again, not a single experiment has confirmed his results. Find me one that has, I'll wait.

a reply to: anonentity

It neither proves 'common sense', nor do his conclusions have anything to do with the fall of Rome.

I swear you people are sucking on lead lozenges.

a reply to: loam

There are more things interesting to think about than just hard science. To me it's the story that matters, I'm approaching it like a sci-fi novel and it's a #ing great one.

a reply to: Peeple

Then let's not confuse your perspective with actual science. Your opinion is more akin to religion, which you're entitled to have.

To each his own.

a reply to: loam

Eh? Well if entertainment and free thought is 'religion' to you ...
I think you've got a few marbles jammed and your brain and ass switched function.
You should get that checked out maybe

a reply to: anonentity
Solitude is wonderful until the loneliness of isolation sets in.
Sometimes we need to isolate ourselves from the rat race.
We can't achieve solitude if we're climbing over each other to get away.
Barriers have to be overcome.

a reply to: Peeple

How mature of you.

a reply to: SwampFox999

Same here even if possible, I do not wish to set another child into this world. I love my daughter and children in general but the world they grow into, how it develops currently.

Rather give all my energy into my daughter's future.

Mice are not people. I've seen the experiment years ago. People are without many basic needs in Africa but they have no problem breeding..meh. Suburbia is actually great. One can have their own water, garden and raise chickens or rabbits. What is not great are large vertical cities. Can't do any of those things in a large city.

Rat utopia is a real thing. After watching that experiment I started to notice the parallels to humans. There is a reason they use mice as the main animal for experimentation.