If we find Atlantis would we change history books?

Beside that we will have one sentence in school books. One of oldest culture is Atlantis dating ....yada yada nada.

If you read Plato you cant find nothing like science before science. Advanced civilization etc.

Stone age society as any other. Except that maybe they have had social utopia.

But thats it.

So my question is: Do you ever wonder- maybe just maybe- someone wants that we discuss about Atlantis which will in no way change our positions or science books. So even if existed...so? Whats the big deal?

originally posted by: aristorat
So my question is: Do you ever wonder- maybe just maybe- someone wants that we discuss about Atlantis which will in no way change our positions or science books. So even if existed...so? Whats the big deal?

I lean towards the idea that there are basically two different images of Atlantis. One is the big, mystical, mythological Atlantis with huge public works and an unusually highly developed culture with power crystals and flying machines that was punished by the gods for their hubris. The other one -- the one I feel is more reasonable -- is a relatively developed proto-culture that existed on the warm, fertile plains of the Azores Plateau, which started to develop such things as agriculture, writing, law, and how to live in towns and cities. It was wiped out when the second asteroid blew up over Lake Huron at the end of the Younger Dryas, melted the snow cap and caused the plateau to quickly sink. It didn't last long, and it left behind no recognizable physical artifacts that could be attributed to it. Some of its stories and legends may have survived though, along with astronomy. Not much, though.

If an adventurous team of undersea archeologists managed to dig up some fragments of Atlantis from the ocean floor, I assume that it would be of the second, more realistic Atlantis, and it would likely find a place in our prehistory as a precursor to a number of cultures that sprang up from the destruction. Not a game-changer, but something that pushes a few dates back. But it would kind of be nice to find a real Atlantis, even if it's not the super advanced culture people fantasize about.

Ok ...perhaps under sea now...north adriatic sea...gulf of persia...doggerland...perhaps we find some cultures.

Following histroic accounts of Atlantis, maps and myths I would put my money in west Africa. But...in the end...who cares? Stone age people. Nothing special.

Few dates back even that is perhaps. But all energy people puts into ...its hilarious.

To be honest...with all data we have about it...I believe it could be true. Even as Helike or Tantalis or just as Atlantis in west Africa as Diodorus of Sicily put it there...but nothing much there to see what we didnt see already.

a reply to: aristorat

What if Atlantis was actually a crap hole filled with woke citizens?

And the wokeness was the reason for its downfall.

I wish I could think of a place I could use as an example but it's still too soon to use the examples here in America.

originally posted by: EdisonintheFM
a reply to: aristorat

What if Atlantis was actually a crap hole filled with woke citizens?
And the wokeness was the reason for its downfall.
I wish I could think of a place I could use as an example but it's still too soon to use the examples here in America.

It may have been the first human society to be run by an actual Emperor. Some good-looking hunter-gatherer with a gift for gab and a small army of people who thought he was on the right track started running things in Atlantis City and tried to get everybody organized into armies, farmers, builders, etc. That's a big change from running around in small groups trying to kill mammoths with a big spear, but not necessarily better.

So the people gave up the freedom to migrate with the large animals and live in harmony with nature so they could have somewhat regular meals, work a dead-end job, take orders from some bureaucrat, and settle into an existence we now call "life."

The biggest problem with finding "Atlantis" these days is that they didn't seem to leave any genetic evidence behind. You would think that if they were sailors there would be a little bit of Atlantis DNA found in cities on the Atlantic coasts of every country. But there has been none found, at least so far. A possible explanation is that they were immigrants from Europe to begin with, so the never existed long enough to generate their own distinct haplotypes.

a reply to: aristorat

No, they would just claim it was natural stones, a false reading, wrong interpretations etc.

But it also depends on which Atlantis you are talking about (not all called Atlantis of course), they exist everywhere in the world EVEN inland were people live as far from the sea as possible.

There is one in Arabia that probably fell down a sink hole which is more or less proven to have existed now.

What about this one from Russia


But real sunken city's are all over the world.

Today most of our city's are built by rivers and coast lines, this would have been even more the case during the glacial maximum's we call ice ages but in fact we are in a long ice age that is about 4 million or so years old called th quaternary glaciation right now and what we call Ice Ages were in fact periods simply known as glacial maximum's.

But during these Glacial Maximum's sea level dropped as much as nearly 500 feet though officially about 410 feet, add to that subsidence and rebound (land rising) during and after the glacial maximum's as the sea is heavier and pushes down more on the sea bed when there is no ice on the continents and they are lighter and want to rise back up while the continents are heavier and the sea is lighter when there are huge amounts of ice pushing down on the continental crust during the glacial maximums and the sea bed wants to rise back up during those times.

This all means that the base line estimate for what depth we should look at for lost city's from the last glacial period would be skewed by variation in land and sea bed altitude at that time.

Add to that the fact that while it sometimes rises fast at other times it rises slow enough to wash away evidence of human settlement.

So what about inland city's from those periods, well in the northern hemisphere ice would have scrubbed them away as the glaciers ground the land down meaning that any such settlements from the previous glacial minimum when the sea levels were last at there highest before the last glacial maximum would be very hard to find, identify after the ice and the flooding and climate variations etc and of course after time and the elements had done there work.

There would of course be enigmatic structures probably in many cases re-inhabited and re-uses by the survivors and new settlers following each period if the sites were once again habitable but identifying them would then be more problematic and the earlier work would be probably unrecognizable and likely to be attributed to later cultures that settled the ruins of the past.
beforeatlantis.com...
earth-chronicles.com...

After the wind and the rain and the time would you even recognize traces of civilizations that may have once made mythical Atlantis look like a bunch of bronze age primitives?.
Probably not and if you did others would say you were just seeing shapes in the cloud's.

Whether nature or the eroded remains of a Mt Rushmore like image of a goddess or ancient queen it is still amazing.


And of course what about this.


What the usual tactic is, some well meaning and actually believing so called expert will usually deny them, claim it is wrong etc, this is obvious obfuscation of the worst kind but people are sheep and they love there experts.

What is an expert, well actually someone just like yourself whom has a piece of paper, some friends that share there interests that share there piece of paper and there opinions and once they form a kind of priesthood if you disagree you are suddenly a heretic, because society believes and is geared at a very deep psychological level to be build around organization be there priesthood or whatever including these so called experts they are willing to accept the so called official narrative that then arises, being a free and open minded thinker makes you problematic and you end up on the fringe.

In the sea there are worm's that actually burrow into rock, ruins made of rock, statues etc even from the roman and Greek period are often unrecognizable so unless the ruins are heavily buried in silt in time they are eroded by these natural process and also dissolved under water with plenty of examples of what sea life can do to roman ruin's in Italian museum's.

It also depends on the stone the structures and artefacts are made from as some last longer, granite is pretty tough but basalt has the longest resistance to these type of underwater creatures and other environmental influences.

This means that the underwater footage is exactly what you would expect from an ancient artificial site, not perfect pristine ruins as you may find buried in mud but ruins that have been exposed to sea water, sea life etc and also silting.

I am a bit amazed by some of the things the Russians have, being such a large nation of course they were bound to have some anomalies but what about a site that makes the builders of the ruins of Baalbek look like midgets.

So what do those Expert's, those PRIESTS of DOGMA say about these ruins, they claim for the most part that they are natural and just a trick of nature, yeah sure they can pull the wool over everyone's eyes some of the time but sooner or later an enterprising goat is going to eat a hole in the blanket they are using and some will begin to see through it.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: EdisonintheFM
a reply to: aristorat

What if Atlantis was actually a crap hole filled with woke citizens?
And the wokeness was the reason for its downfall.
I wish I could think of a place I could use as an example but it's still too soon to use the examples here in America.

It may have been the first human society to be run by an actual Emperor. Some good-looking hunter-gatherer with a gift for gab and a small army of people who thought he was on the right track started running things in Atlantis City and tried to get everybody organized into armies, farmers, builders, etc. That's a big change from running around in small groups trying to kill mammoths with a big spear, but not necessarily better.

So the people gave up the freedom to migrate with the large animals and live in harmony with nature so they could have somewhat regular meals, work a dead-end job, take orders from some bureaucrat, and settle into an existence we now call "life."

Adding to that, agriculture was basically impossible on the mainland. If a herd of giant deer, or mammoths showed up in their field one day, and looked at the humans with a "we're taking this" look, the humans would have no choice but to just run away and let them have it.

Mammoth hunting techniques did not anticipate being able to kill the mammoth on site. They wounded it instead, and tracked it for a few days in hope of catching up to a corpse.

It wasn't like today. In a straight up fight, herd of mammoths vs village of humans, in that time the humans would surely lose. You've got to pierce something like a foot and a half or two feet into the animal's thick leathery hide in order to inflict a kill shot. With a flint tipped spear? Yeah. Not likely.




However, what if you settle on an island that doesn't have any megafauna?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

The farmlands if they were real would have been between two to four or more hundred feet below current sea level on the once fertile vast planes that are now submerged around our coast lines.

We have seen evidence that farming long predates the fertile crescent with finds such as a 10.000+ year old claimed rice field in Asia or several of them in fact, who was it that cultivated or genetically modified the tomato and the corn etc which is a bit of an elephant in the room that most often get's ignored, how long would it take and why would humans breed a relative to the deadly nightshade to be edible?.

originally posted by: aristorat
Beside that we will have one sentence in school books. One of oldest culture is Atlantis dating ....yada yada nada.

That's pretty much it. History books are being rewritten all the time, but Atlantis didn't contribute (if it existed) much of anything. And frankly, you don't get any in-depth history until you're in graduate school.

Stone age society as any other. Except that maybe they have had social utopia.

The "maybe" would only make it in scholarly discussions and not in a textbook for grade school.

So my question is: Do you ever wonder- maybe just maybe- someone wants that we discuss about Atlantis which will in no way change our positions or science books.

No one cares if you discuss Atlantis or if you make up new information about it. There's even scholarly discussion about it, if you just look. However, IF it took place, it was so long ago that it's unimportant to modern society... just like we don't learn anything about the Vedic civilization in world history, in public school, and very little about it in college unless you live in India or (in grad school) specialize in topics about India. And yet it was one of the foundational civilizations of the world, influenced all our language and symbolism from that culture appears in many places.

a reply to: Byrd

I have to agree, as far as we can see no culture prior to the classical time line that is the standard accepted today seems to have played any part in our more recent development but you make an interesting point, if any previous age of development did exist it was either so localized and isolated or was followed by such a dark age and loss of knowledge that other than perhaps legend's it left nothing that influenced later society's except and in the tiny possibility that more ancient structures and sites could have been reused at much later periods though that is drawn from fringe conjecture and theory.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

We have seen evidence that farming long predates the fertile crescent with finds such as a 10.000+ year old claimed rice field in Asia or several of them in fact, who was it that cultivated or genetically modified the tomato and the corn etc which is a bit of an elephant in the room that most often get's ignored,

Not taught in public schools because they're focused on other things -- teaching how to read and how to do math and so forth.

The modifiers are the women of the hunter-gatherer groups, who gathered grains and fruits and other plant edibles while the men hunted and noted where these plants could be found. They're the ones who discovered that if you dropped seeds from a plant, then these plants would be there the next year.

That led to selectively dropping plants (genetic modification by breeding)... and so on and so forth.

There's some really clear archaeological examples of this in the original tribes in California. However, you'd only know this if you studied Native Americans of the West Coast in depth.

how long would it take and why would humans breed a relative to the deadly nightshade to be edible?.

By the time it was domesticated in Mexico, it wasn't deadly any longer.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Byrd

I have to agree, as far as we can see no culture prior to the classical time line that is the standard accepted today seems to have played any part in our more recent development but you make an interesting point, if any previous age of development did exist it was either so localized and isolated or was followed by such a dark age and loss of knowledge that other than perhaps legend's it left nothing that influenced later society's except and in the tiny possibility that more ancient structures and sites could have been reused at much later periods though that is drawn from fringe conjecture and theory.

There's some clear examples of this in the history of the Aztecs, Maya, and Olmecs. However, there wasn't a "loss of knowledge" but rather that the civilization collapsed and tribes from the north heard that the area was vulnerable and practically deserted, so their people started migrating in. Of course, they didn't speak the language but they did make use of some of the leftovers and incorporated them into their culture.

a reply to: Byrd

The whole vehicle of lost city's and sunken kingdoms as well as myth has also been used for gnostic practice as well for a long time, passing ideas that were outside the mainstream of society and often in secret society's was a common practice.

At one this this book or a version of it was said to be of great interest to the NAZI's of all people, despite being scum bag's they did have a great interest in alternative history though there interest was not so much about achieving the truth as about painting a reimagined history with there imaginary superior ancestral race as it's main protagonists and victim's.

Still it is an interesting relic though likely has very little truth if any within it though it just may and actually did not even relate to the Germans but the Frisian people and so if real was nothing to do with the Germans mythical ancestry, we know of course the Germans are just as mixed as most other people's and have a surprising amount of polish ancestry as well as Gaelic and Nordic and even perhaps Mongolian/eastern Eurasian (including Russian).
archive.org...

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: aristorat
So my question is: Do you ever wonder- maybe just maybe- someone wants that we discuss about Atlantis which will in no way change our positions or science books. So even if existed...so? Whats the big deal?

I lean towards the idea that there are basically two different images of Atlantis. One is the big, mystical, mythological Atlantis with huge public works and an unusually highly developed culture with power crystals and flying machines that was punished by the gods for their hubris. The other one -- the one I feel is more reasonable -- is a relatively developed proto-culture that existed on the warm, fertile plains of the Azores Plateau, which started to develop such things as agriculture, writing, law, and how to live in towns and cities. It was wiped out when the second asteroid blew up over Lake Huron at the end of the Younger Dryas, melted the snow cap and caused the plateau to quickly sink. It didn't last long, and it left behind no recognizable physical artifacts that could be attributed to it. Some of its stories and legends may have survived though, along with astronomy. Not much, though.

If an adventurous team of undersea archeologists managed to dig up some fragments of Atlantis from the ocean floor, I assume that it would be of the second, more realistic Atlantis, and it would likely find a place in our prehistory as a precursor to a number of cultures that sprang up from the destruction. Not a game-changer, but something that pushes a few dates back. But it would kind of be nice to find a real Atlantis, even if it's not the super advanced culture people fantasize about.

Well, here's the thing about those two sides:

Even if we *did* find Atlantis, as in the actual city and nation of Atlantis with undeniable proof that it was the one refered to in the texts... one side will will just go "no, thats not Atlantis, its not advanced enough because [insert any imaginary requirement here]". And how will you prove them wrong, even with undeniable proof? You wont. They wont accept that proof. They will still say no thats not Atlantis.

Ooookay, time for me to introduce a dose of reality. The only reference to Atlantis anywhere is in Plato's works Timaeus and Critias, where it is an enemy of Athens. Let me repeat that - it's in two minor works of Plato where it is mentioned as an enemy of ATHENS.
There are no references to it anywhere else at all. There is is no proof of it existing outside of various people's imaginations.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

It is possible that it was as Plato said a story told to Solon by Egyptian priests, indeed the Egyptian creation myth had a primordial mound or Island in the middle of the primordial Nile.

That said there ARE claims of Pre Platonic reference to Atlantis though those are probably quite contestable especially since we probably lost any real evidence that such may have existed over the course of history as we have lost many times more than we remember or that scholars have preserved over the last 1000 years along never mind the last nearly 2449 years.
fathersergio.wordpress.com...

While we can probably all agree that the Platonic Atlantis was an allegorical tale we will all have to wonder if perhaps there was more to it than merely a tale, I personally think there was but I do not know that just an opinion but then I am somewhat of a romantic at times so?.


Just read that word press item the guy knows what he is talking about including ancient Egyptian inscriptions on a temple pillar, pre platonic including Sanskrit references (perhaps as old as 2000 BC or claimed to be so) to Atlantis under another name but Atlantis complete with a city with three circles.

Who knows you may just have to reconsider your position on that one.

Atlantis never sank, it rose into the sky...

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: aristorat
So my question is: Do you ever wonder- maybe just maybe- someone wants that we discuss about Atlantis which will in no way change our positions or science books. So even if existed...so? Whats the big deal?

I lean towards the idea that there are basically two different images of Atlantis. One is the big, mystical, mythological Atlantis with huge public works and an unusually highly developed culture with power crystals and flying machines that was punished by the gods for their hubris. The other one -- the one I feel is more reasonable -- is a relatively developed proto-culture that existed on the warm, fertile plains of the Azores Plateau, which started to develop such things as agriculture, writing, law, and how to live in towns and cities. It was wiped out when the second asteroid blew up over Lake Huron at the end of the Younger Dryas, melted the snow cap and caused the plateau to quickly sink. It didn't last long, and it left behind no recognizable physical artifacts that could be attributed to it. Some of its stories and legends may have survived though, along with astronomy. Not much, though.

It's not impossible that such a culture could have existed. But the Azores I doubt because sampling has shown that your timeline is way off.
However, such a find couldn't be linked to Plato's Atlantis because there are no surviving stories or legends that could be used to do so.

Harte