"Silly boy, it's all about trust."

a reply to: DISRAELI

deliberate mistranslation of the text

No not true at all. You translate the words with your egoic mind. Whereas I translate the words with my heart. So I see your understanding - Human sacrifice, body eating, blood drinking for recieving this and that as complete nonsense. Whereas I see my understanding as continually walking the desert, overcoming the evil (egoic mind) that barraicdes myself from God.

I believe the Gospels were written for two translations. One a public consumtion (Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth aka reincarnation), whilst the other for those that inherit the kingdom within.

Anyone who wanders down the new path you're signaling will not get anywhere near the gate, let alone through it.

Anyone that follows the true path doesn't wish for egoic rewards. Do you think Jesus spent his life teaching for rewards. Do you think Jesus died on the cross for rewards. His greatest teaching was his life. That being his sefless nature, So I say to you "have my place". Come what may, to myself.

You are a Will O' The Wisp.

ouch!

originally posted by: glend

You translate the words with your egoic mind. Whereas I translate the words with my heart.

That's what I mean by mistranslation. I am looking for the intended meaning of the people who wrote the words, and the God who prompted them.
You are coming up with your own private ideas and imposing them upon the words.

I think the "esoteric" approach is the one that is governed by ego, because the esoteric is refusing to listen to the originator of the text.

The Biblical God is a communicator. He does not use secret codes.

originally posted by: glend
ouch!

I am being blunt because I am serious about my belief that misleading people in this area is a dangerous thing to do, for the misled and those doing the misleading.
"Whoever causes one of thse little ones who believe in me to stumble..." etc. (Matthew ch18 v6)

This is not a game, though there is a third person on this thread who treats it like a game.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
I am looking for the intended meaning of the people who wrote the words, and the God who prompted them.
You are coming up with your own private ideas and imposing them upon the words.

You admit that you are looking for the intended meaning.........which means you too are imposing your private ideas.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
I am looking for the ideas of the originators of the text. Which are not my own until I have read them.

a reply to: DISRAELI
You read them and then seek, with your own understanding, what the intended meaning is.
No different than anyone else really.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Children see magic in the world. As adults we loose that inner child. Perhaps the esoteric have not.

Do not worry DISRAELI. Consider me a gust of wind that has blown away.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by Disraeli
I think the "esoteric" approach is the one that is governed by ego, because the esoteric is refusing to listen to the originator of the text.

Not if the writer of the text is deliberately using esoteric/coded language to try and convey something to the reader…

Originally posted by Disraeli
The Biblical God is a communicator. He does not use secret codes.

Actually, you’re wrong…

Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God in Parables, in Matthew 13

Matthew 13:10-13
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Speaking in metaphors and Parables is for all intense and purposes speaking in Code…

Jesus was actually making that point in Matthew 13, that through hearing (the literal) they don’t actually hear it…meaning they don’t understand the message beyond the literal interpretation of what is being spoken…

A simple example, is when Jesus speaks about fruit, we know he doesn’t mean literal fruits…but of course this is well known…

But what of other coded words, metaphors and symbology found throughout the rest of the Bible; if you’re always just going with the literal interpretations and aren’t looking for anything deeper, then that’s all you will ever see…

- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
Not if the writer of the text is deliberately using esoteric/coded language to try and convey something to the reader…

I don't believe the Biblical God does anything of the kind. Yes, he uses metaphors to help people gain understanding, but he does not have secret messages intended for some people and not for others. Metaphors are not secret codes, because they can be "deciphered" easily. When people failed to understand the parables, that was really because their own minds were closed off (as was the case in the Isaiah verse which Jesus was quoting).

I remind you that in my original comments, I was not criticising a metaphor. I was criticsing a deliberate mistranslation designed to create a meaning which was never intended by the writer.
As the bishop of Oxford said in his criticism on Newman's Tract 90; "I am unwilling to accept a mode of interpretation by which words can be made to mean anything or nothing."
I am only interested in the intended meaning of the Bible. If you want to imagine your own theories and twist the Bible into seeming to support them, that is a different kind of religion.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by Disraeli
I don't believe the Biblical God does anything of the kind. Yes, he uses metaphors to help people gain understanding, but he does not have secret messages intended for some people and not for others.

You're wrong again!!!

He does have a secret message!...according to Matthew 13:10-13…Jesus says “the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them”….

Matthew 13:10-13
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

What Jesus really means, is that they’ve (the disciples) had gone beyond just the literal and have understood the parable and the metaphors used within it etc…

Originally posted by Disraeli
Metaphors are not secret codes, because they can be "deciphered" easily. When people failed to understand the parables, that was really because their own minds were closed off (as was the case in the Isaiah verse which Jesus was quoting).

Anything that is concealed using secret Metaphoric language, is very much like a code…whether it’s easy or difficult to decipher, is pretty much irrelevant really…

Originally posted by Disraeli
I am only interested in the intended meaning of the Bible. If you want to imagine your own theories and twist the Bible into seeming to support them, that is a different kind of religion.

Where in my first post, did I imagine my own theory, or twist the Bible…

Sorry, but you’re losing me here…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
But the "secrets" are now known to everybody who reads the gospel, so it isn't a permanent "secret" after all.
So I won't allow that argument as an excuse for twisting the Bible into private fantasies. That is the essence of the "esoteric" approach to the Bible, which is what I am rejecting.

If you are defending the esoteric approach, then your defence is part of what I am rejecting.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by Disraeli
But the "secrets" are now known to everybody who reads the gospel, so it isn't a permanent "secret" after all.

Not true…because people still have to try to decipher and understand what the parables and metaphors really mean, for themselves…It’s about realising that there are deeper things contained within the metaphors and parables…

I mean, Jesus even states it himself, in the verses I’ve already quoted, twice! (Matthew 13:10-13)…He’s basically saying that those parables contain secrets about the Kingdom of Heaven…meaning the secret are still contained within the text itself…

Let me just remind you about what the context of this discussion is about…

It’s about you stating to another poster, that the "esoteric" approach, is the one that is governed by ego…which is clearly not the case…

Originally posted by Disraeli
I think the "esoteric" approach is the one that is governed by ego, because the esoteric is refusing to listen to the originator of the text.

Understanding the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the parables and metaphors used, has nothing to do with using the ego…It’s actually the complete opposite of that…Jesus clearly wanted people to try and decipher what he was teaching…otherwise he wouldn’t have spoke in parables at all…

It’s really about searching for the deeper meanings within the texts…

Like I said in my first post, if you completely shut yourself off to them, then you’ll never find them, as you’re not even looking…

- JC