Tube Amplifiers...???

originally posted by: rounda
Depends on what it's for.

If you're going to record an album and have it professionally done, don't even bother. They're going to produce the # out of your tracks anyway. I can make a midi file sound pretty darn close to a real guitar with just the basic plugins that come with the DAW, to the point where only the guy with 40 years of studio experience could tell. Any producer worth his salt has some third party plugins that blow Pro Tools or Logic base plugins out of the water. Spend that money on marketing.

If it's just for noodling around, don't even bother. Digital sampling is good enough where you won't even know the difference anymore.

If you're a gigging musician, it's probably less costly to get a solid state rig as your amps will probably get banged around quite a bit.

I'd say the only case where it would be a priority to get a tube amp would be if you were a collector. But again, tubes ain't cheap, and they're hard to find. They ain't plug n play, either. Every tube has it's own unique sound.

You must not be a musician. Sampled instruments do not sound like the actual instruments and any musician worth their salt can tell you that. I've got a few solid state amps (Kustom, Peavey, Vox) that have broken parts from being hauled around, it's rare to see a tube amp broken the same way unless it's one of the newer ones with the circuit boards and modular wiring crap. Molex connections that burn and weak circuit boards are a real issue with them.

Tubes are not hard to find unless you're looking for actual Western Electric 300Bs or the 7199. Many do have their own character, but again that's not a fair statement to make concerning plug & play, pre-amp tubes are just that. Not all amps require manual biasing anymore, and they're just not all that expensive to re-tube unless you get into a high-powered amp.

a reply to: HalWesten
7199, yes, hard to find, I have an extra pair for my old Scott..took awhile to find, I think Dynaco uses them too, as phase inverters.

NOS power tubes are difficult to find, lots of NOS, or test good small signal tubes. There are lots of new production tubes. And right now, I'm guessing 50%+ of high end modern gear is tubes, so lots of tubes out there!

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: rounda
Depends on what it's for.

If you're going to record an album and have it professionally done, don't even bother. They're going to produce the # out of your tracks anyway. I can make a midi file sound pretty darn close to a real guitar with just the basic plugins that come with the DAW, to the point where only the guy with 40 years of studio experience could tell. Any producer worth his salt has some third party plugins that blow Pro Tools or Logic base plugins out of the water. Spend that money on marketing.

If it's just for noodling around, don't even bother. Digital sampling is good enough where you won't even know the difference anymore.

If you're a gigging musician, it's probably less costly to get a solid state rig as your amps will probably get banged around quite a bit.

I'd say the only case where it would be a priority to get a tube amp would be if you were a collector. But again, tubes ain't cheap, and they're hard to find. They ain't plug n play, either. Every tube has it's own unique sound.

You must not be a musician. Sampled instruments do not sound like the actual instruments and any musician worth their salt can tell you that. I've got a few solid state amps (Kustom, Peavey, Vox) that have broken parts from being hauled around, it's rare to see a tube amp broken the same way unless it's one of the newer ones with the circuit boards and modular wiring crap. Molex connections that burn and weak circuit boards are a real issue with them.

Tubes are not hard to find unless you're looking for actual Western Electric 300Bs or the 7199. Many do have their own character, but again that's not a fair statement to make concerning plug & play, pre-amp tubes are just that. Not all amps require manual biasing anymore, and they're just not all that expensive to re-tube unless you get into a high-powered amp.

Sampled instruments don't sound anything like a real instrument, you're correct. Until they're routed through plugins in the DAW.

Unless you're buying a vintage tube amp, every amp on the floor uses modeling. They're all trying to reproduce the sounds from the original circuits using non-original parts.

Any song produced in a modern recording studio is running through a digital circuit. And the racks of gear they use to process the sounds are more than likely solid state.

So while you think you might be able to tell the difference, you can't.

As a former healthcare professional with experience in hearing issues, can only grin regarding boomers bragging about having golden ears saying they can hear the difference.

First, my next door neighbor is in the musicians hall of fame and has a recording studio in his house. He records out of his house and digitally sends the tracks in to be mastered in. Trust me, if you have ever regularly listened to music, you have heard him play. He has studio recorded with many of the biggest names in music from people like Michael Jackson to Aretha Franklin. Something from nothing? How can tubes be more accurate if the master is digital?

The other is hearing issues are the third most common modality in our society. As a normal process of aging, you loose your ability to hear higher frequencies. Ever hear of (no pun intended) vowels and consonants? The first thing you notice is difficulty in noisy situations understanding normal speech as you hear the vowels but miss the higher frequency consonants.

Great urban legend.

Denny

I marvel sometimes at some of the critics, some actually make me chuckle.

I work in aviation, yes, that's right...around great big, loud, roaring jet engines. They're deafening loud, just deafening! Depending on your location with respect to an engine sound pressure levels can easily exceed 160 dB, and for extended periods of time too.

I didn't just start in this business yesterday. On the contrary, I've been working in it for 30+ years. As part of my employment (independent agency) hearing tests are required quarterly. My hearing is better than most 18 year olds. Fact. I've always had a little better hearing in my right ear than my left, but this is due to some ear infections I had in gradeschool. In any case, my hearing is considered excellent. Yes, I do wear hearing protection, sometimes 3 levels of it even, but to make blanket statements that people's hearing sucks just because they get older is a careless and misleading statement. People who are careless about their hearing may get worse as they age, but people who have always paid attention to their hearing not so much.

When was the last time you saw a 20 year old orchestra conductor?? You don't. If they couldn't hear, they couldn't conduct and lead an orchestra. Some of the best musical analysts and sound analysts in the industry are 50+ years old. To make an allegation I can't hear something because I'm not 18 years old is utter nonsense!

Sorry, but it's true.

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: rounda
Depends on what it's for.

If you're going to record an album and have it professionally done, don't even bother. They're going to produce the # out of your tracks anyway. I can make a midi file sound pretty darn close to a real guitar with just the basic plugins that come with the DAW, to the point where only the guy with 40 years of studio experience could tell. Any producer worth his salt has some third party plugins that blow Pro Tools or Logic base plugins out of the water. Spend that money on marketing.

If it's just for noodling around, don't even bother. Digital sampling is good enough where you won't even know the difference anymore.

If you're a gigging musician, it's probably less costly to get a solid state rig as your amps will probably get banged around quite a bit.

I'd say the only case where it would be a priority to get a tube amp would be if you were a collector. But again, tubes ain't cheap, and they're hard to find. They ain't plug n play, either. Every tube has it's own unique sound.

You must not be a musician. Sampled instruments do not sound like the actual instruments and any musician worth their salt can tell you that. I've got a few solid state amps (Kustom, Peavey, Vox) that have broken parts from being hauled around, it's rare to see a tube amp broken the same way unless it's one of the newer ones with the circuit boards and modular wiring crap. Molex connections that burn and weak circuit boards are a real issue with them.

Tubes are not hard to find unless you're looking for actual Western Electric 300Bs or the 7199. Many do have their own character, but again that's not a fair statement to make concerning plug & play, pre-amp tubes are just that. Not all amps require manual biasing anymore, and they're just not all that expensive to re-tube unless you get into a high-powered amp.

Sampled instruments don't sound anything like a real instrument, you're correct. Until they're routed through plugins in the DAW.

Unless you're buying a vintage tube amp, every amp on the floor uses modeling. They're all trying to reproduce the sounds from the original circuits using non-original parts.

Any song produced in a modern recording studio is running through a digital circuit. And the racks of gear they use to process the sounds are more than likely solid state.

So while you think you might be able to tell the difference, you can't.

Sorry dude but you are very wrong when it comes to amps. Only modeling amps use modeling. There are still many solid-state amps that do not use digital modeling. I have all three - tube (Fender, Traynor, Ampeg), solid state (Fender, Kustom, Peavey, Yamaha, Vox) and modeling (Fender). I guarantee you there is a difference in the sound of each one. I guess you are also unaware of analog recording and vinyl coming back because of the sound. You can make these claims all day but we musicians know better.

I've heard rumours that around 1978 they decided to build stereos with cheaper circuits. The Hi Fi we used to listen to just no longer exists. So I wouldn't spend much on any stereo.

I think tubes are mainly used for better guitar sound. Especially loud volumes. The digital emulators are real versatile, good at low volumes (Fender Mustang). Better is a (Fender Super Champ x2) which has output tubes and is also an emulator. But my Marshall Jubilee is better especially at high volumes. Sounds more musical. Feeds back in a more musical way and cuts through the mix.

a reply to: Doctor Smith

I've heard rumours that around 1978 they decided to build stereos with cheaper circuits. The Hi Fi we used to listen to just no longer exists. So I wouldn't spend much on any stereo.

It's just not true at all, that hifi does not exist today, there is tons of it..lots of really good gear. You can find whatever you are looking for, be it retro, or ultra modern, and that goes for tube, and solid state.

Now you are somewhat correct about things getting made cheaper in the very late 70s and 80s, up untill then, companies went to the mat to outdo each other, but economically was a tough go. This was for the mass produced commercial brands. The high end niche stuff still pushed forward.

originally posted by: DaCook
As a former healthcare professional with experience in hearing issues, can only grin regarding boomers bragging about having golden ears saying they can hear the difference.

First, my next door neighbor is in the musicians hall of fame and has a recording studio in his house. He records out of his house and digitally sends the tracks in to be mastered in. Trust me, if you have ever regularly listened to music, you have heard him play. He has studio recorded with many of the biggest names in music from people like Michael Jackson to Aretha Franklin. Something from nothing? How can tubes be more accurate if the master is digital?

The other is hearing issues are the third most common modality in our society. As a normal process of aging, you loose your ability to hear higher frequencies. Ever hear of (no pun intended) vowels and consonants? The first thing you notice is difficulty in noisy situations understanding normal speech as you hear the vowels but miss the higher frequency consonants.

Great urban legend.

Denny

Listen (no pun intended), you may be a hearing expert but you're not a music expert. There is a difference between hearing notes at specific frequencies and hearing the QUALITY of those notes at specific frequencies. I'm not doubting your knowledge or experience when it comes to hearing but you're missing the bigger picture of this discussion - the quality of what a person does hear. Based solely on your posts it's something you don't understand and are too bullheaded to learn from others.

I have disliked digital recording since it came out in the late 70s but I was raised on tubes. Tube amps are used by the musician and recorded today on hard drives for the most part. There is an instant loss in warmth of the tone which is further denigrated by the compression of the transfer to CD or digital files. That is why some bands are returning to recording directly to tape again, then either going to CD or vinyl from there. If you put the two side-by-side and have any sort of ear at all you will hear the difference on a quality audio system. To say otherwise just shows extreme ignorance of how music is processed. I would love to challenge you to a blind test of music as I've described. I think I know who would win that contest.

My range drops off substantially above 8khz and I can no longer hear anything above 11khz but everything beneath that is still there.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Doctor Smith

I've heard rumours that around 1978 they decided to build stereos with cheaper circuits. The Hi Fi we used to listen to just no longer exists. So I wouldn't spend much on any stereo.

It's just not true at all, that hifi does not exist today, there is tons of it..lots of really good gear. You can find whatever you are looking for, be it retro, or ultra modern, and that goes for tube, and solid state.

Now you are somewhat correct about things getting made cheaper in the very late 70s and 80s, up untill then, companies went to the mat to outdo each other, but economically was a tough go. This was for the mass produced commercial brands. The high end niche stuff still pushed forward.

One thing this thread proves is people either understand hifi or they don't. The solid state revolution that started in the 60s did so as you said, and also to reduce heat and power consumption, labor costs and because transistors were so small and cheap to make. And they can make a lot of power without a lot of work. I have a mid 60s RCA console with an all tube stereo amp that I will be freshening up in the future. I can't wait to hear that when I'm done.

Here's what you do. Buy a set of Bose speakers made for computer. The sound is almost as good as the stereo's I used to listen to and much more practical. You can listen to any music for free right off YouTube etc.

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: rounda

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: rounda
Depends on what it's for.

If you're going to record an album and have it professionally done, don't even bother. They're going to produce the # out of your tracks anyway. I can make a midi file sound pretty darn close to a real guitar with just the basic plugins that come with the DAW, to the point where only the guy with 40 years of studio experience could tell. Any producer worth his salt has some third party plugins that blow Pro Tools or Logic base plugins out of the water. Spend that money on marketing.

If it's just for noodling around, don't even bother. Digital sampling is good enough where you won't even know the difference anymore.

If you're a gigging musician, it's probably less costly to get a solid state rig as your amps will probably get banged around quite a bit.

I'd say the only case where it would be a priority to get a tube amp would be if you were a collector. But again, tubes ain't cheap, and they're hard to find. They ain't plug n play, either. Every tube has it's own unique sound.

You must not be a musician. Sampled instruments do not sound like the actual instruments and any musician worth their salt can tell you that. I've got a few solid state amps (Kustom, Peavey, Vox) that have broken parts from being hauled around, it's rare to see a tube amp broken the same way unless it's one of the newer ones with the circuit boards and modular wiring crap. Molex connections that burn and weak circuit boards are a real issue with them.

Tubes are not hard to find unless you're looking for actual Western Electric 300Bs or the 7199. Many do have their own character, but again that's not a fair statement to make concerning plug & play, pre-amp tubes are just that. Not all amps require manual biasing anymore, and they're just not all that expensive to re-tube unless you get into a high-powered amp.

Sampled instruments don't sound anything like a real instrument, you're correct. Until they're routed through plugins in the DAW.

Unless you're buying a vintage tube amp, every amp on the floor uses modeling. They're all trying to reproduce the sounds from the original circuits using non-original parts.

Any song produced in a modern recording studio is running through a digital circuit. And the racks of gear they use to process the sounds are more than likely solid state.

So while you think you might be able to tell the difference, you can't.

Sorry dude but you are very wrong when it comes to amps. Only modeling amps use modeling. There are still many solid-state amps that do not use digital modeling. I have all three - tube (Fender, Traynor, Ampeg), solid state (Fender, Kustom, Peavey, Yamaha, Vox) and modeling (Fender). I guarantee you there is a difference in the sound of each one. I guess you are also unaware of analog recording and vinyl coming back because of the sound. You can make these claims all day but we musicians know better.

I'm fully aware of the hipster fad of vinyl coming back.

Just like vintage clothing.

And you're not understanding what I'm saying about modeling.

Go to guitar center and buy any Fender amp on the floor. They are all replicating a vintage circuit using non-original parts.

That's modeling.

The same way a digital modeling amp uses a digital circuit to model a vintage circuit.

Even boutique amp builders using original parts are modeling an original circuit, because they didn't invent the circuit...

Unless you are buying a vintage amp, you are buying a modeling amp.

Sorry bud.

a reply to: rounda

Vinyl distortion is real, that's what people hear when they say vinyl sounds better, better is a bad word to describe it, it's not a better sound, it's just a different sound, so they are not making it up. I used to collect it but I just don't have the space for it nowadays, I have gone all digital.

That warmth is easy to emulate on tracks in the Mastering phase, and I have plugins to do exactly that if I want after I finish a track.

The physical touch, feel and collecting of Vinyl is something that I think drives it's resurgence more than anything.

These Old arguments are done to death, I think it's a generational thing, old guys swear by analogue, younger guys have embraced digital, everybody is kind of right. But in the end use whatever the hell you like best, if it sounds good that's all that matters.

a reply to: valiant

I read a really good article just yesterday comparing the quality of "vintage" hi-fi gear to equipment being put out today. The conclusion was, with very few exceptions, modern equipment today is quite a bit better than vintage hi-fi gear of old. The article was written by a vintage collector and electronics engineer. He made a really good analogy in the article. He made a great comparison to muscle cars of old and modern cars, pointing out the attraction to vintage equipment is mostly nostalgia based, and even though many say the old stuff will "blow the doors off" modern gear, in most cases the folks saying this are just blinded by the nostalgia.

He cited the performance stats of the old Mustangs, GTO's, Chargers and Camaro's of the day and compared them to some of the stats from just average cars like a Volkswagen Passat or a Chevy Malibu. Most of the new cars will run a 1/4 mile much faster than the old muscle cars, many have more HP, are longer lived and are more comfortable.

I'd still love to get my hands on a decent 69 Camaro though!

originally posted by: Doctor Smith
Here's what you do. Buy a set of Bose speakers made for computer. The sound is almost as good as the stereo's I used to listen to and much more practical. You can listen to any music for free right off YouTube etc.

Here's what I did: My computer outputs to a regular audio receiver, which outputs to a pair of Mission 70 speakers. The sound is very satisfying, and the receiver was seven bucks, the speakers twenty-five - all bought used (the computer as well, and that was $45).

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

That pretty much sums it up! If you're into vintage gear, you shouldn't feel inferior or superior, just enjoy it! same thing goes for modern stuff. It's all there for us to just make and listen to cool # with!

I've never been a Car guy, just has no interest for me, but there are 2 kinds of Cars I drool over at any chance, 1950s American muscle cars, and the 1989 Batmobile