I Am An American

originally posted by: tanstaafl
Because I'm not.

Proving my point.

Obviously (by the context) I meant "... like our country's founding."... but good for you, you caught me in a mis-speak. Feel better?

That was obvious but you still went on to compare them with the US today.

I actually don't feel better or worse. It isn't about that for me.

That is simply your opinion, and it is wrong. Yes, ours was the first.

Actually if you had been willing to research you'd see that the list I linked had 3 that came before but you already said you have no interest, so you continue to prove the point above.

So

already...

No, I'm not debating with you. I'm putting forth facts that you refuse to look at and hoping anyone reading along or stumbling on this thread in the future can see what blind patriotism looks like.

And your point was wrong. None of these other countries you mention 'won a war of independence and following said war instituted our form of government'.

Actually some did but you would never know because you want to feel special. Oh well.

They were all petty military dictatorships or some other petty tyrant wanna-be (yes, often installed and propped up by the traitorous rat bastards in our own US State Dept/Intel Community) who at some point decided it was a good idea to pretend to mimic our country in certain ways.

Says the person who complains about the deep state.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
As I said - slavery was the reality of the time.

Which makes the "all men are created equal" in the declaration of independence a lie upon which your patriotic claim is based.

Luckily for you, I am willing to fight for your right to denigrate our country, whether you live here or not...

Lucky for us it makes no difference what you are willing to fight for.

originally posted by: alldaylong
Just read up on...

Might come across some facts doing all that reading.

originally posted by: daskakik
"originally posted by: tanstaafl
As I said - slavery was the reality of the time."

Which makes the "all men are created equal" in the declaration of independence a lie upon which your patriotic claim is based.

Not at all. Again... for those incapable of rational thought... slavery was the reality, and there was absolutely no way there would be a USA today had the founders tried to abolish slavery at the same time as founding a new country.

That line in the Declaration was the foundation for the eventual elimination of slavery.

Understand the significance.

I'm about done with the ignorance on display, by all means, have the last word and declare victory.

originally posted by: alldaylong
England is not Britain. It is only part of it. Before Ethelstan England was ruled by tribal Kingdoms such as Mercia, Wessex, Kent, Northumbria etc. Each tribe had it's own King or Queen,until they where united into one country that became England.

So, yeah, there were people - tribes - living in the land now known as Britain. So what? There were native Americans living in what is now the USA for a long time before the USA was founded. Does that make them the USA?

But by all means, twist things to fit your personal narrative.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
Really? I'll admit I'm not a historian... but googling says that the Roman Emire was founded in 753BC, while the first king of England/Britain (Æthelstan) was in 927AD

Roman Britain, Britannia being the Latinization of Pretani as the inhabitants called it, wasn't firmly established until the late 1st Century following much pacification after the 49AD invasion. Those natives were in fact mostly Celts that were driven out of Trans- and Cisalpine Gaul and Gaul proper by the Romans leading up to the 1st Century so their culture was well-established by the time the Romans arrived on the island.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
That line in the Declaration was the foundation for the eventual elimination of slavery.

Understand the significance.

Other countries outlawed slavery before the US and didn't need that line in their constitution or founding documents to do so.

There is nothing significant about that line when people, without liberty, were born, lived and died under that lie that you want to feel special about.

I'm about done with the ignorance on display, by all means, have the last word and declare victory.

There is no win/lose in this discussion. It is just you reaching at straws trying to keep your feels propped up.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: alldaylong
England is not Britain. It is only part of it. Before Ethelstan England was ruled by tribal Kingdoms such as Mercia, Wessex, Kent, Northumbria etc. Each tribe had it's own King or Queen,until they where united into one country that became England.

So, yeah, there were people - tribes - living in the land now known as Britain. So what? There were native Americans living in what is now the USA for a long time before the USA was founded. Does that make them the USA?

But by all means, twist things to fit your personal narrative.

The British and European invaders into North America conquered the Native American Indian Tribes and never returned home again.

The Romans came to Britain and then went home again. There lies the difference.

a reply to: daskakik

Your examples show other countries trying to replicate what the USA first created, but falling into traps of encompassing government, 'community', 'unity' and exceptions.

Have you noticed how verbose your examples are? From what I have seen, the more examples and words a document has, the more loopholes exist for a government to override what they claim to protect. In your last example, all it would take is for a bureaucrat to say that someone is a danger to the guarantee of 'political, economic or social order' justice and BAM!, down comes the hammer of government.

Hard pass.

a reply to: Teikiatsu
Doesn't matter. The point is that there are other places with freedom comparable, even if not identical, to the US.

It isn't like people have not had the hammer of the government come down on them in the US.

Also, pretty sure the FF of the US were influenced by the Magna Carta. That doesn't take anything away from the US Constitution so why should copying a good idea take away from any other constitution?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Teikiatsu
Doesn't matter. The point is that there are other places with freedom comparable, even if not identical, to the US.

Yes, there are. They have less freedoms no matter how wonderful their documents read.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Yes, there are. They have less freedoms no matter how wonderful their documents read.

Here we have yet another example of blind patriotism.

OK boss, nobody can be as free as you.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Elimination of slavery.....yet segregation - another name for apartheid - was common place in many parts of the USA well into the 1960's.

There is much to admire about the USA, its record on civil liberties isn't really one of them.

There are several sources of inspiration for the US Constitution etc; Magna Carta, The English Bill of Rights, John Locke, John Lilburne and even the Native Indian Iriquois system of government amongst others.

We Europeans have not regressed you know and despite all the spoon fed propaganda you seem to be swallowing we are by and large just as free to speak and think what we feel as you Americans are.

a reply to: Freeborn

Yeah, but can you turn off your Alexa with a shootin iron?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I can't deny you're right there....but I don't really want to so its pretty much a moot point.

originally posted by: Freeborn
Elimination of slavery.....yet segregation - another name for apartheid - was common place in many parts of the USA well into the 1960's.

Yes, but it was institutional (governmental), and it's primary impetus - like the KKK - was the Democrat party.

There is much to admire about the USA, its record on civil liberties isn't really one of them.

I agree, but again, the problems were imposed more top down, primarily by the democrat party.

There are several sources of inspiration for the US Constitution etc; Magna Carta, The English Bill of Rights, John Locke, John Lilburne and even the Native Indian Iriquois system of government amongst others.

Of course, and the Founders cited many/all of these during the Constitutional Convention and the debates regarding its adoption.

We Europeans have not regressed you know and despite all the spoon fed propaganda you seem to be swallowing we are by and large just as free to speak and think what we feel as you Americans are.

If it makes you feel better to believe that, have at it.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Fair and honest reply.

If it makes you feel better to believe that, have at it.

I do believe that, the evidence I have to support that is that I live here.
What evidence do you have to support your viewpoint?

I assure you, I am just as free to voice my opinions as anyone I have met from anywhere.....and I do, frequently and pretty explicitly too.

Why do you think anything other?
Why are so many American's obsessed with the idea that they alone are allowed freedom of thought and speech?

It's bizarre.

originally posted by: Freeborn
"If it makes you feel better to believe that (Europeans have the same freedoms we have in America), have at it."

I do believe that, the evidence I have to support that is that I live here.
What evidence do you have to support your viewpoint?

What happens if you say anything contrary to the official 'holocaust' doctrine? There is a lot of disinformation and downright lies regarding what happened - and no, I'm not a 'denier', I'm simply pointing out that the official story is anything but 100% accurate - but if you try to discuss that over there, you can go to jail.

We have the Right to Keep and Bear arms. Do you?

I assure you, I am just as free to voice my opinions as anyone I have met from anywhere.

See above...

a reply to: tanstaafl

What happens if you say anything contrary to the official 'holocaust' doctrine? There is a lot of disinformation and downright lies regarding what happened - and no, I'm not a 'denier', I'm simply pointing out that the official story is anything but 100% accurate - but if you try to discuss that over there, you can go to jail

There is no law against being a Holocaust Denier in The U.K. So no, we don't go to jail.

We have the Right to Keep and Bear arms. Do you?

Apart from being a member of a Shooting Club, give me one good reason why anyone would need to own a firearm ?

And before you say the reason is to " protect yourself " , you have a police force that is employed to do that.

originally posted by: alldaylong
There is no law against being a Holocaust Denier in The U.K. So no, we don't go to jail.

You said 'Europe'.

We have the Right to Keep and Bear arms. Do you?

Apart from being a member of a Shooting Club, give me one good reason why anyone would need to own a firearm ?

And before you say the reason is to " protect yourself " , you have a police force that is employed to do that.
Rotflmao!!! Tell that to the relatives of people who have died waiting on the police to come and 'save them'.

Guns are used to prevent crimes and deaths every day, year round.

An armed society cannot be controlled. Had Germany not first eliminated the private ownership of guns before they started taking people away, the Natzis would have never been able to get away with what they did.

The fact that you are terrified of guns in private hands speaks volumes about your lack of a sense of responsibility for your own well being. You prefer the nanny state, that is ok, you're at least in the right country for it.