The Hourglass Universe and Black Holes

About a week ago I watched an interesting video about how the black hole in the center of our galaxy suddenly got 75 times brighter than normal. The flash of infrared light was twice as bright as anything we've seen in the 20 years of observing the galactic core, and scientists are really struggling to explain what caused it.

The new findings “push the limits of the current statistical models,” since those don’t account for infrared flux levels this high, and suggest scientists’ understanding of our galaxy’s central black hole is not up-to-date, the team wrote in the paper.

The supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy suddenly lit up brighter than scientists had ever seen, and nobody knows why

This got me thinking that maybe something we don't fully understand is happening inside a black hole, if nothing external caused the sudden burst of energy then perhaps there is an internal mechanism producing the effect. After all, black holes are similar to the space-time singularity of the Big Bang, some scientists say our universe exists inside of a black hole.

Therefore black holes may be a very good way of understanding the nature of the Big Bang, and vice versa. One interesting but theoretical property of black holes is that they could form wormholes under the right conditions. These wormholes are typically described as a type of tunnel creating a shortcut between two distant places in space, being held open with negative energy.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/50b9cb2aefa1.jpg[/atsimg]

Several months ago I watched a doco where they interview several top physicists including Hawking not long before his passing, who talk about why they're moving away from singularity-based models of the Big Bang, onto something they call the No Boundary Proposal. At around the 40 minute mark they begin discussing how the No Boundary Proposal leads to the hourglass model with time reversal.



Here are some quotes from the documentary which I found to be particularly relevant:

"Interesting enough, the No Boundary Proposal predicts bouncing universes as well, then it predicts arrows of time that are in one direction on one side of the bounce and the other direction on the other side of the bounce." ~ James Hartle

"I agree that this hourglass kind of picture of the universe is emerging from various angles now, but the natural initial condition will evidently make the early universe rather simple, and that automatically leads you to that hourglass kind of evolution, with the arrow of time pointing in opposite ways of the bounce." ~ Thomas Hertog

"Many models for the early universe, whether they be derived from String Theory, Loop Quantum Gravity, or Inflationary Cosmology, seem to be converging on the idea that our expanding universe has a mirror image of its self, creating an hourglass-like structure for the cosmos." ~ Narrator

This is a rendering they use to illustrate what an Hourglass Universe might be shaped like:


Loop Quantum Gravity is another framework attempting to merge quantum mechanics and relativity by quantizing gravity and other aspects of space-time, making it quite similar to the No Boundary Proposal. Again we see the Hourglass model arising naturally and in some variants of Loop Quantum Gravity we also see an opposite arrow of time as a feature of the "Big Bounce" event.


Loop Quantum Gravity states that true singularities cannot exist because space-time is quantized into discrete indivisible units (Planck length and Planck time) and there is a limit to how much energy any given unit of space can contain. Thus if you rewind time you find that when this limit is reached some type of "Big Bounce" event occurs, implying a sort of cyclic model.



Here's a good quote from this Loop Quantum Gravity documentary:

"We got convinced in recent years, and we are trying to convince the community, that when you go to the center [of a black hole] it doesn't end there - the universe - you continue. You go through a quantum region but very rapidly you go out this quantum region and what you have on the other side of the quantum region is very simple, it's just the time reversal of what went in and the physics is simple. If you take a ball, you let it fall, it goes down and what happens when it hits the ground? Well the first approximation is it just comes up, and how does it come up, it's exactly the time reversal of when it went down. And why bounces? Well because you cannot compress things too much. There's a limit in compression or if you want there is a Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It's the same reason an electron cannot be squeezed in an atom. Classical theory predicts that the electron is going to fall onto the nucleus of an atom but it doesn't, because of quantum theory. Quantum theory forbids something to be squeezed too much." ~ Carlo Rovelli

Even if space-time wasn't quantized I think the point about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle would still apply, once an object gets small enough its exact state becomes uncertain. If black holes followed this same type of hourglass structure, that could imply there's a so called "white hole" connected to the other end of black holes via some sort of "quantum tunnel".

Here is their depiction of what this wormhole structure may look like, note how similar it appears to the previous images:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ro5d5b2273.jpg[/atsimg]

If all this wasn't yet enough, there are multiple other models where the Hourglass structure pops out of the logic and math. For example the Bimetric Relativity model I posted about a few years back uses negative energy to balance out the positive energy and conserve energy. According to the math of relativity, negative mass would experience negative time. Here is a quote from that thread:

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
It essentially postulates that at the moment of the Big Bang, an equal amount of negative and positive energy was created, but because the negative energy is moving backwards through time it actually creates two different "twin universes" which sprout out from the big bang. In a sense they are like parallel universes which are able to interact via the force of gravity.

Bimetric Relativity, Twin Universe Cosmology, Negative Energy

Yet another approach is to think in terms of entropy and gravity, which you can read more about in the following article from late 2014. It's a reasonably long article but provides insight into research done by a team of physicists who tackle this subject from an interesting angle, and arrive at the same type of Hourglass picture with two arrows of time running in different directions.

From that low-complexity state, the system of particles then expands outward in both temporal directions, creating two distinct, symmetric and opposite arrows of time. Along each of the two temporal paths, gravity then pulls the particles into larger, more ordered and complex structures—the model’s equivalent of galaxy clusters, stars and planetary systems. From there, the standard thermodynamic passage of time can manifest and unfold on each of the two divergent paths. In other words, the model has one past but two futures. As hinted by the time-indifferent laws of physics, time’s arrow may in a sense move in two directions, although any observer can only see and experience one. “It is the nature of gravity to pull the universe out of its primordial chaos and create structure, order and complexity,” Mercati says. “All the solutions break into two epochs, which go on forever in the two time directions, divided by this central state which has very characteristic properties.”

2 Futures Can Explain Time's Mysterious Past

Getting back to the crux of this thread, could it be possible that the black hole at the center of our galaxy has a white hole connecting it to some other location in space-time or possibly even somewhere in the "twin universe"? An interesting fact was reported when they detected this bright flash from our central black hole; in 2014 a gas cloud passed near it but astronomers didn't detect the flashes of light expected.

It would almost seem like matter/energy is coming out of the black hole for no apparent reason but it's not coming out when we expect it to. If the matter falling into a black hole is actually ejected out of the white hole side it may help explain part of this problem. However we don't usually imagine matter falling into a white hole since it acts in an opposite way to the black hole.

However I don't necessarily think this notion is valid, it is after all a symmetric structure with space-time being funneled down. Also worth considering is that white holes may only exist in the "twin universe" where time flows backwards, perhaps explaining why positive mass would always fall into black holes and be spat out from white holes.

If that were the case it makes sense that matter in the twin dimension would be attracted to white holes. This is because the mass would experience "negative time", making it a form of negative mass which acts as though it has negative gravity. When this negative mass is sucked into the white hole and comes out our black hole side it would instantly annihilate upon contact with positive mass and release a vast amount of energy.

I agree. From all the descriptions, this seems like the most likely shape of the universe, both macro across the vast stretches of spacetime, but also in the tiny little fragments of matter we're all made of. Because the universe and everything in it curves back on itself. If you had a telescope that could see all the way back to the beginning of time, you could point it in any direction and still see the same thing but from different angles. If you could travel at infinite speed in any direction -- including INTO the dimensions inside every atom of your being -- you'll always come back to where you started.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Because the universe and everything in it curves back on itself. If you had a telescope that could see all the way back to the beginning of time, you could point it in any direction and still see the same thing but from different angles.

I don't think the Hourglass model really gives us a conclusive idea of the curvature, it doesn't mean the universe curves back on itself but it does seem to imply there is some curvature. Oddly enough I actually think the universe has no curvature and is infinite, mainly because I think we live in a zero energy universe which conserves energy through a balance of positive and negative energy. In order to have curvature you need an imbalance between positive and negative energy. If space-time is infinite and flat as our observations indicate, the solution might not be quite as simple as this Hourglass structure, it could be something even more abstract. Once you start getting into stuff like infinite expansion in both directions of time things get messy.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Look up poster Neonhaze, he was/is a physics professor in the UK if memory serves and had a few threads on loop quantum gravity.

Fascinating stuff!

Found this earlier reading news...

Black hole devouring a neutron star caused ripples in space and time, scientists say

www.foxnews.com...

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Very cool.
I've always been a fan of your sciencey threads. We need more of this on ATS.

Interesting
So , my lifelong theory about the "Great Expansion" , the "Great Contraction" , then the "Great Expansion" may be true.
See y'all in a few trillion years....

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think scientist have flaw fundamental assumption nature can be represented with mathematics. There are inherent limitations with abstract representations in language. Nature is analog and not digital in essence. There are waves of energy vibrating in every possible direction along every possible frequency. Rogue waves converge and suddenly the black hole in the center of our galaxy gets 75 times brighter than normal. Some events simply cannot be predicted to occur unless you have power of omnipotent powers of measurement in every dimension in which energy waves are vibrating.

This rogue wave phenomena also occurs inside our minds and is the source of all our creativity and the origin of our thoughts.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I still like the idea our Big Bang was the result of a star collapsing to black hole in another previously existing space-time dimension:

White Holes

Given the number of stars in our Universe capable of collapsing into a black hole that's a really much bigger view of time and space than just one Universe we find ourselves living in!

It’s difficult to imagine time flowing in a negative direction. Would this mean that the other side of the big bang is the death of the previous universe? Does the universe both start and end at the same time? Existence sure is peculiar. At the end of the day, I can only postulate that all is nothing. There truly is nothing and that is what we are experiencing. Nothingness

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

We have not been observing A* for a very long time, maybe a decade or two. So there are bound to be "unprecedented" events, which would require adjustments to statistical models.

The scientists themselves speculate that it could be due to changes/disturbances of the accretion disk caused by the passing of a nearby star.

No need to invoke any exotic theories.

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Very cool.
I've always been a fan of your sciencey threads. We need more of this on ATS.

Thanks, the science and technology forum is my most used forum but I've been a bit more focused on politics the last couple of years. I still enjoy debating politics but I'd prefer to get back to making more threads like this.

originally posted by: IronPunk
It’s difficult to imagine time flowing in a negative direction. Would this mean that the other side of the big bang is the death of the previous universe? Does the universe both start and end at the same time? Existence sure is peculiar.

Honestly I'm not 100% sure of what it exactly means but it certainly is peculiar. I'm not sure there's even a practical difference between saying it's the death of a previous universe or a universe experiencing negative time, but I guess if both twin universes exist at the same time then it may be more accurately described as universe with an opposite arrow of time. It's gets even weirder with Bimetric Relativity because both the positive and negative dimensions are able to interact via gravity.

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

The scientists themselves speculate that it could be due to changes/disturbances of the accretion disk caused by the passing of a nearby star.

No need to invoke any exotic theories.

In the first video I posted he shows a simulation of this star passing by the black hole and shows why the delay indicates it's unlikely to be the cause. Scientists are aware that explanation is weak which is why this phenomena is still considered unexplained for the most part. There's just no way such a large burst of energy could come from a slight disturbance caused by a passing star.

Also I don't really consider this to be an exotic theory, it's a model which naturally arises with a multitude of different frameworks which describe the Big Bang from very different perspectives, all arriving at a very similar conclusion. Personally I see the classical Big Bang model as a far weaker theory with much less of a factual basis and more reliant and ad hoc systems to make it workable.

Coincidentally, one of the science channels I follow uploaded a video about white holes today. He explains that white holes are a valid solution to Einstein's field equations, essentially being just a time reversed black hole. The video is actually about what would happen if a black hole and white hole collided. The question its self isn't really valid, because how could something which moves backwards in time exist in our universe which is moving forward?

If white holes exist this is precisely why we've never actually observed one, because they can only exist in a place where the arrow of time is reversed, in other words the twin universe. This is made even clearer when he shows the simulation of a white hole. If it's simply a black hole with reversed time then it could have an accretion disk. The direction of time and entropy in our side of the universe is always flowing in one direction and prohibits negative energy existing in positive space-time.

The repulsive gravitational force of the white hole can only mean it's time reversed or contains negative energy. If it's constantly spewing out energy but never sucking in any energy you have to ask exactly where that energy is coming from and how it got into such a state to begin with. As he explains near the end of the video, black holes and white holes are really two sides of the same coin and they are mathematically equivalent. All this suggest we're describing two ends of a wormhole connecting the twin universes.

The hour glass shape help provides some focus when looking into things like the history of the universe or the makings of an atom.

Had the feeling of the eye of galaxy having a look at Earth with that flash, what's going on here, hmm. Maybe word got out about the storm area 51 and they want to go?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I always wondered if dark matter/energy could possibly be the influence of another universe upon ours. Or in this case with the Bimetric Relativity, the twin universe interacting with ours. There’s so much we don’t know and probably will never know. It’s maddeningly interesting though

i think, if big bang is real, all stars eventually turn to black holes. then, the black holes start eating each other. until there 'can be only one' and then, its too much matter, wham, explosion.
and the circle of life starts again.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: ChaoticOrder
This rogue wave phenomena also occurs inside our minds and is the source of all our creativity and the origin of our thoughts.

Lately, I've been thinking more of my existence and thoughts as tiny little eddy currents in the huge energy matrix of the universe, like a little backwater of stability and calm and structure just outside the churning rapids of energy roaring through the universe.