Are there millions of extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy alone capable of visiting Earth

originally posted by: Spacespider
a reply to: dfnj2015


I would wonder why none of these "millions of extraterrestrial civilizations" have not invented at way to travel the stars and come visit us then... who to say we should be the firsts, perhaps they are already here, or was here.

If they were so technologically advanced and capable of rapid deep space travel, why on Earth (excuse the pun) would they want to visit a bunch of ants?

a reply to: Kromlech

There are plenty of other explanations for space travel of great distances. We don't even have a working knowledge of all the elements available in the universe.


I mean even NASA is exploring theoretical FTL that isn't wormholes.

But yes most likely thrust alone can not do it. Altering spacetime and gravity waves would have to play a part most likely.

a reply to: wmd_2008

what mate , How am I clutching at straws I'm just speculating as to the possibility
If gravity can affect light as a wave , then surely gravity affects radio waves as well ?

science is about asking questions and then finding answers
if you arent able to look beyond what we already hold as truth
and think outside of the Universe
then we wont make any progress

For all the reports of UFOs and alien encounters....that scientists haven’t seen ANY instances of galactic Kardashev level 2-3 mega-structures yet, seems to imply we are alone here(But if their are aliens, they’re not from “Here/This galaxy”

originally posted by: johnthejedi24
For all the reports of UFOs and alien encounters....that scientists haven’t seen ANY instances of galactic Kardashev level 2-3 mega-structures yet, seems to imply we are alone here(But if their are aliens, they’re not from “Here/This galaxy”

I sincerely doubt based on current models in physics classical, quantum, cosmological etc..that one Authors idea of advancement is the only possibility.

For instance having different higher elements because of location would change things in a way that requires quite a bit of modeling to fully realize.

Let's get extreme with my point and say there was an element we don't have that creates compounds we don't have? Now evolution of intelegence/psychology is all together different.

Even in if a human tribe were to evolve in this scenario its entirely possible to skip over mechanical movements for instance, never create a steam engine etc... Entire different systems of living and knowledge.


On a simple level how about something that effects gravity waves naturally that exists on the planet by chance as a comet collision. Who knows what is truly possible and the philosophers who work with physicists have some crazy rabbit holes to think about.

a reply to: johnthejedi24

Perhaps.

The lack of megastructures may imply other things as well, *IF* higher-order tech using aliens are natives to the milky way. For example: a predator species that ruthlessly hunts and kills other civilizations that everyone "hides" from, etc.

Personally, I like the megastructure model because it makes sense that a species might want to build a "galactic size civilization" around a handful of close stars to mitigate light lag in communications.

Large scale empires that stretch hundreds or thousands of light years make for cool science fiction, but are difficult to govern because of their scale; a civ that stretches 1000 ly doesn't even know its being attacked at its outer borders for 1000 years.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: johnthejedi24

Perhaps.

The lack of megastructures may imply other things as well, *IF* higher-order tech using aliens are natives to the milky way. For example: a predator species that ruthlessly hunts and kills other civilizations that everyone "hides" from, etc.

Personally, I like the megastructure model because it makes sense that a species might want to build a "galactic size civilization" around a handful of close stars to mitigate light lag in communications.

Large scale empires that stretch hundreds or thousands of light years make for cool science fiction, but are difficult to govern because of their scale; a civ that stretches 1000 ly doesn't even know its being attacked at its outer borders for 1000 years.

The problem with thinking of distance and time is we don't have to be talking about thrust as transportation. A people capable of space travel would either have parts of physics we don't by chance like having other compounds available to engineer or by advancement as humans would expect through a certain technology stage process.

In either case it wouldn't be rocket science it would be the parts of string theory we hope to test and exploit symmetry in the quantum and classical world.

If there are in fact millions of ET civilizations in our galaxy capable of visiting us what might make us so special that we might be worth the effort of visiting us if life were that common?

I would have thought that only civilisations that have reached a certain level would be worth it. I doubt that we are yet at that stage.

a reply to: luthier

String theory is a mathematical model that attempts to unify micro and macro scale physical phenomena. It is not a universal "get out of jail free" card for violating the laws of physics.

There might be loopholes, there are probably workarounds, but focusing only on those and ignoring physical constraints entirely is as productive as postulating a magical universe where wizards "did it."

It's all about energy and gravity. They also go hand in hand. If a civilization could get to space easier somehow or earlier by having different elements and environment massive energy experiments may not require as much expensive safety mechanisms.

Since E=MC2 you can do quite a bit with energy including to spacetime.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: luthier

String theory is a mathematical model that attempts to unify micro and macro scale physical phenomena. It is not a universal "get out of jail free" card for violating the laws of physics.

There might be loopholes, there are probably workarounds, but focusing only on those and ignoring physical constraints entirely is as productive as postulating a magical universe where wizards "did it."

I disagree. The universe quantum and classical theories rely on symmetry to balance mathematical logic in the theories we currently know. For instance we now have theories of quantum darwinism etc..we have a suspicion we have many more dimensions than 3 or 4 and the symmetry requires many more than that or we have some serious problems across the board with our model.

Just because you are not aware what the cosmological models are and why they require say "many worlds" is because of math...

I am not saying we have the theories correct. However the largest amounts of energy we can create come from the quantum world. Energy and lots of it are required in any space society. If you think its rockets well I guess we can't get passed mars really so...

a reply to: luthier
Chemical rockets aren't the tea, chief, no question. But what are you "disagreeing" with? A wizard did it?

By all means, theorize, conceptualize and create mental models that you can test against what we already know. I have no beef with that.

In fact, I suspect that any civ with a 10,000,000 year head start on us can probably use something like string theory to create an intermediary space where "distance" in spacetime isn't even a factor. Everything is as close as you can sing it.

But I can't "prove it," or even create a mental model that I can share with someone else to properly test (think through). If I could imagine all of the points between here and there, we'd be there already.

So, while such constructs may be useful in science fiction and fantasy, they are somewhat less useful when working toward the next generation of propulsion for human space travel. They aren't even terribly useful in describing alien behavior as we currently possess a model of exactly one technologically advanced civ and it can't do string magick, outside of mathematical models.

Good convo though. I like where your head is, creatively. Reading and replying to you is almost as good as coffee!

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

Thanks for the replies as well!.

However I have to disagree again with what seems to be your premise that applied science is more important than theoretical modelling.

This is what is killing science for science imo which is where engineers find new theories to create artifacts.

Thank God for fermilabs and CERN.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. There is no magic in what I am talking about.

What I am talking about is actually using physics to discuss how a society could develop the ability to travel long distances. We already know electromagnetism and energy/mass effect spacetime and gravity.

Obviously when theorizing about the future its speculation. My point is you can still apply what we hope to test.

Everything I have discussed is in ACTUAL physics being theorized because there is math to support the theories not because I am JRR Tolkien. It doesnt make them fact just saying the model of superstrings is pretty far out and it's the best science we know for unification but of coarse it is not fact.

a reply to: AnakinWayneII

That's easy: we're the only civilization in the known multiverse with earth women and rock n roll.

a reply to: luthier

Not more useful from as a construct, but more practical from a real world iterative engineering standpoint.

I don't believe for a minute that you imagine yourself as Gandolf and that is not my intention. If I am inarticulate on this point I apologize and beg forgiveness (and more coffee, I'm out).

In fact, I would love to read more about the theoretical model(s) you are referring to. Can you link me anything?

Best!

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

And other "stuff": "Take me to your dealer..."

a reply to: oldcarpy

Starred for the ring of truth.

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

Again I would have to say theoretical physics creates the base engineers can use. Just look at QM and computers. They draw from research done in scientific curiosity or we would be using random turn of the century hands on labs like Westinghouse. Just trying stuff and seeing what happens. Now we use math and highly sophisticated equipment. It speeds up the process.


books.google.com...


Its stuff like this. MWI philosophy of time and space..

Usually math and scholarly not exactly a vice article.

a reply to: sapien82

The thread is based on millions of Aliens being able to reach Earth first radio signal are about 110+ light years out the first tv signals about 60 + light years if their assumption and yours are true we should have plenty of proof by now, we dont

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: oldcarpy

Starred for the ring of truth.

Just to explain perhaps a bias in applied science how would you explain the Nimitz incident if it's not an error of radar, multiple pilots eyesight error etc...

I don't think assuming all these things are error is the only supeepositioned pathway... a joke here let's not get on me for the metaphore...
It is either an error, a piece of technology terrestrial that defies current understanding of flight, or extraterrestrial.

Personally I would find it lazy to assume it's an error. If it's not then we have some other things to talk about.