Yes, another thread about Atlantis.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect
I know it will sound doggied, but the only reason I keep throwing out Cruiser Tablemount is because it makes better sense to me than the "Eye Theory" (Eye Theory is the belief that the eye of the Sahara is Atlantis) There is more evidence to support Cruiser Tablemount as Atlantis than the Eye, as you have posted. My question as to that being the island city of Atlantis is that we would have to assume that the date given by Critias is correct, and have to ask ourselves why would Athens be at war in the Atlantic Ocean during a time when glaciers were still present on the land from the ice Age?

The war that is talked about would have been massive to the likes not seen until the modern era. If Atlantis was the commanding kingdom of all the forces in the Atlantic Empires, then how did Athens survive?
I do like the theory though, but given the 9300BC timeframe there are many places closer to the Attica Peninsula that should be prodded first. Though the evidence for Cruiser being the location is very tempting isn't it.

a reply to: Blue Shift
I'm going to get back to this, since I have a theory that could relate to this mystery land. I just need to flesh it out a little.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect
There is a possibility that most of the major civilizations in the Mediterranean basin came from the same root civilization, but separated due to power grabs, rebellions, and just plain old explorations.

a reply to: Harte


These are the reasons I wanted to spend the time at this point hacking out the timeframe of the story, as well as this war that is being discussed in the dialog.

a reply to: Blue Shift

NICE map! Do you still have the link to that in your browser history?
Or do I have to keep sailing the Google seas to find it?
Because so far no luck.

a reply to: Guyfriday

Myth and Legends often have a Basis in Truth to Some People . The Eye of the Beholder you Know , BUT .............




An Opinion and a Fact walk into a Bar , both Order a Double of the Strongest Liquor the Bar Tender has on the Shelf .

Opinion says to Fact –“ I Bet you a Hundred Bucks I Can Drink More than You Without Passing Out . “

Fact Responds – “ Give Me Your Money Right Now , You Lost .

Opinion looks Perplexed , then says – " How is that Pal ? "

Fact looks him Up and Down and says – “ Your Body Weight compared to mine is about 30 Pounds Less , Plus I also Urinate Frequently due to my particular Metabolism . You Lose . “


Opinion – “ Hmm…Well thought Out I must Admit , but I will Also bet you a Hundred Bucks that I can think of More Creative Ways to get Drunker than you . “

Fact – “ Hmm…You got me there Pal , YOU Win .. “

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

I'm not sure where you're going with this post. We are having to look through Plato's writings to crack the cold case of Atlantis, but on the other hand we can use myths from the region to help find truths in the stories. So as a basis to start with using the story of Critias, then using any additional information about similar people/places/events that can be pulled from myths to build upon the data.

In either case using reason to analyze the data is the key factor in figuring out what could be the truth. Opinions are great to help move along ideas, but opinions need to have sets of facts in order to make them useful to others. The story of Atlantis is only told through the dialog of Critias, so using that as the starting point only makes sense.

a reply to: Guyfriday

I guess you missed the Metaphor there ............

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: Guyfriday

I guess you missed the Metaphor there ............

Yep … I saw the metaphor, but it was flying over my head. Sorry.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
These are the reasons I wanted to spend the time at this point hacking out the timeframe of the story, as well as this war that is being discussed in the dialog.

The time frame is stated by Plato as clearly as anyone can state a time frame.
Wanting to monkey with what Plato wrote means looking for something else other than Atlantis.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
These are the reasons I wanted to spend the time at this point hacking out the timeframe of the story, as well as this war that is being discussed in the dialog.

The time frame is stated by Plato as clearly as anyone can state a time frame.
Wanting to monkey with what Plato wrote means looking for something else other than Atlantis.

Harte

That's why I've been focusing on the 9300BC timeframe. Which would mean that the war Critias is discussing is an unknown war. That is unless you have any ideas as to this conflict?

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: Blue Shift

NICE map! Do you still have the link to that in your browser history?
Or do I have to keep sailing the Google seas to find it?
Because so far no luck.

Sorry. I reduced and cropped the map from the original. I'll see if I can find it again. I think I just Googled "Atlantic 400 feet lower" or something like that.

originally posted by: Guyfriday

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
These are the reasons I wanted to spend the time at this point hacking out the timeframe of the story, as well as this war that is being discussed in the dialog.

The time frame is stated by Plato as clearly as anyone can state a time frame.
Wanting to monkey with what Plato wrote means looking for something else other than Atlantis.

Harte

That's why I've been focusing on the 9300BC timeframe. Which would mean that the war Critias is discussing is an unknown war. That is unless you have any ideas as to this conflict?

The conflict was an imaginary conflict between two sides. One side was imaginary, and the other side was imaginary.
Atlantis never existed, so it didn't exist in that time frame. Athens existed, but it didn't exist in that time frame.

Plato described Atlantis as a bronze Age culture. There was no such technology in that era. You don't get a bronze age without leaving behind some bronze.

Harte

I like threads about Atlantis.

I feel at home again

a reply to: Harte


Critias states (as recorded by Plato)

Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in the like manner.

All pulled from the Wiki:
Theseus
Cecrops
Erechtheus
Erichthonius of Athens but could also be Erichthonius of Dardania
Erysichthon of Attica but could also be Erysichthon of Thessaly

Link are provided for quick reference to the people named. The conflict in question could very well have been real, but if Athens lost or if something cataclysmic happened during the war, then we may not know much about it.

As I have stated before, Atlantis could have been an early adopter of Bronze, but it's also possible that the term "Bronze" is being used when "Copper" might have been a better description. Critias tells us that the story was told to Solon by the Egyptian Priests. This is important since Egypt had been using a copper alloy that was more brass that bronze. So the Egyptians may not have made a difference between bronze and other copper alloys, or Solon may not have understood that it was just copper, and not bronze.

a reply to: Guyfriday

The oldest remains of what could be termed culture and civilisation in Thessaly date to at earliest 6000 BC. This means it is 3300 years later than Plato, if you take him at face value. In other words, no.

There is no Atlantis. Plato used it as allegory, as he did with other topics. Allegory is a useful teaching tool, particularly when his teachings were verbal rather than written.

I would there to be some ancient super city waiting to be discovered that gives us lots of answers about our past - who knows, one could be out there. It isn't Atlantis though.

Regarding possible remains, you have to consider that we find artefacts (items or bones) from very early species of human, even under the sea. But nothing for Atlantis. Even a cataclysm would leave something behind. For example, if you look at the Boxing Day tsunami in 2004 that destroyed everything in its path in Indonesia, it still left the stumps of walls.

a reply to: Flavian

As I stated earlier in this thread:

In the 9300BC version of the story (the one that has been written by Plato, but relayed by Critias) the location of Atlantis must be closer to the Attica Peninsula than Africa. In fact give that a glacier was falling apart in the alps at that time, and reshaping the landscape each time, we could make a guess that the Italian region could be a possible location to the City Island of Atlantis. It could very well be placed in the Rovigo and Ferrara area.

If a city or even island existed in that area of Italy before a glacial dam burst, then I doubt we'd find anything of it today given that it would have been covered by layers of earth and washed over with the waters. You do make an interesting point though, and all we need to do is look at Pompeii or Herculaneum to see that there could be a large settlement just sitting there waiting to be discovered.

People act like we are in possession of EVERY ancient manuscript ever written between the time of Solon and Plato. Obviously we are not in possession of everything written and for all we know there could have been a dozen other written references to Atlantis that were burned up in the Library at Alexandria.

"And next, if I have not forgotten what I heard when I was a child, I will impart to you the character and origin of their adversaries (the Atlanteans)… My great-grandfather, Dropidas, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child.

Obviously there were other writings on Atlantis besides the Critias and Timaeus.

Are there not at least 3 places in Plato's writings where it is stated that the story is true?

Like this one:

“And of course the fact that it’s no made-up story, but a true account, is no small matter.“
~ SOCRATES: 26

“Let me tell you this story then, Socrates. It’s a very strange one, but even so, every word of it is true. It’s a story that Solon, the wisest of the seven sages, once vouched for. “
~ CRITIAS: 20

At the end of the Republic, Socrates tells the story of Er, who, severely wounded in battle, has a near-death experience. He comes to, finding himself on a funeral pyre (fortunately unlit). “And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled” (Jowett). Plato uses the device of the “true” amazing tale in other dialogues, including the Meno and Laws.

Source
My emphasis.

Same literary device used in The Republic, which even Plato (through the Socrates character) states was made up.

There's three other uses of the "true story" device right there by Plato - outside of the one in Critias.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Sorry for the delayed response back.

Are you calling into question Plato, or Critias?