A Mathematical Analysis of the Star of Bethlehem

This thread was created to show science supports the biblical story ! Well .... the Bible is god and god equalls body counts just like communism and socialism which I’m against ! Let’s be friends

St Maximus the confessor said that pondering god being here before nothing is like staring into an abyss ! Nietsche said stare long enough and the abyss stares back ! I don’t look at mirrors out side of shaving ! I like Carlos Castaneda don’t believe in pictures ! Unless it’s the star of Bethlehem ! Happy now lol I got us back on the track of regulus and Jupiter hog wash ! See how I neatly wrapped it all together ! Nobel look out ! What will I wear when accepting the peace prize ? 😂

Yes that is why you can’t debate to success with faith based people ! They will say no matter how much evidence there is ( dinosaur bones created by satan ) Satan has corrupted the truth ! It’s really mental sickness enforced through ritual fear and abuse that is criminal

I’ve written thousands of pages of thoughts and research !! So a 500 word text with auto suggestion on my capitalists iPhone is easy for someone like me who thinks in run on scentances ! “Know your weakness”... Miyamoto Musashi off to bed my friend the Welkin is turning to morning and all the high energy busy bodies are getting up ! My time to sleep ! Few things that peak my intrest go on during day time ! Girls sunbathing in the day or hookers on the strip at night ! All the same except we all look better at night lol good talks I mean that ! I was ruff on you because spite is a great prime mover only for a minute ! Now that you are engaged you can move from spite into hope and I’ll behave ! Your name is Sisyphus forever until you walk away from your curse ! Kidding ! Message me in the gloaming !

a reply to: DpatC

Here we go again. You are trying to describe an spiritual event with the "limited knowledge" we have on mathematics.

Here is a hint for you. When you are talking about Jesus Christ, or God, or even the apparitions of the Virgin Mary, etc, etc, you are talking about spiritual events in which physics do not work exactly as they normally would.

Even to the pagan Roman, and Jewish historians Jesus was described by them as a magus. Someone who was able to do miracles which they had never seen before. But because Jesus would not use his powers or call on his father to defend him, the Jewish and Romans saw him as a threat they could deal with.

When people face the unknown, and more so someone like Jesus who threatened the power of the Jewish orthodox rabbis of the time, people tend to act in strange ways, including with rage towards such an event they cannot explain.

In psychology there is an "attempt" at explaining supernatural events such as the apparition of the Virgin Mary, and the dancing sun. These events are seen by unbelievers as "mass hallucinations," when they are supernatural events.

Naive is the man, or woman who thinks they know everything there is to know about not only the universe, but the multiverse and different dimensions in which everything that exists is.

Jesus himself said "my kingdom is not of this world." So there is always the possibility he was half alien, and half human.

In the account of Jesus we have the only account that can be proven of a man who wasn't entirely a man and could do impossible things/miracles.

If we look at other "myths" there are similar accounts of half men/half gods, but in Jesus account we have the only probable and historical account of such an event and such a supernatural being.

Most historians now, and for a long time, have accepted that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, and not a myth.
Roman pagan, and Jewish historians wrote about him as someone who did exist. The Romans made a joke claiming Mary was raped by a Roman, but this was nothing more than an attempt by unbelievers to laugh off a supernatural event they could not comprehend, and would not accept.

a reply to: DpatC

Seriously? It's a fairy story That's like spending all that time to prove that the tooth fairy does not exist.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: DpatC

Seriously? It's a fairy story

That's like spending all that time to prove that the tooth fairy does not exist.

Oh really?... is that why Roman historians, who at the time were pagan, and Jewish historians wrote about him as someone who does exist?...

Publius Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and Senator who detested both Christians and Jews. He wrote a series of books named "the Annals" which dealt mainly with the fire that nearly burned all of Rome in 64 AD.

In book 15 chapter 44 Tacitus wrote:

In his Annals, Tacitus tells of a fire that swept through Rome in the 60s, for which some were blaming Nero himself...

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

www.mesacc.edu...

The above is just one of the many historians who wrote that Jesus exists.

There were attempts by early non-Christian authors, including Romans, to discredit Jesus, and false stories were made, including one made by Celsus (circa 178 AD) in which he claimed Jesus' father was a Roman soldier.

...
Celsus was a friend of Lucien of Samosata, who was Syrian rhetorician and satirist.

While none of Celsus' original writings have survived intact, the following passages from Alethès Lógos were quoted by the 3rd century Christian theologian Origen in his eight-volume work Contra Celsum or Katà Kélsou (248 AD), meaning "Against Celsus", for the purpose of refuting Celsus' claims. A copy of Alethès Lógos had been found by Ambrosius and was sent to his friend Origen with a request to refute it.

"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by working with her hands [spinning]. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthera (i. 32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god."
...

cameltranslations.blogspot.com...

In the above "claim" Celsus tried to explain Jesus "miracles" as "magical powers he had acquired in Egypt." In that same account Celsus tried to laugh off Jesus' divine origin by claiming a Roman soldier had raped the Virgin Mary.

If Jesus did not exist why were there attempts to discredit his divine origin?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: DpatC

The author makes some incredible assumptions based on very little evidence
You can’t look at biblical statements with your presentism mindset
A star, could have been any type of light in the night sky, maybe Caesar’s comet as sookie suggested

Reality we have no idea what it was and assumption is silly

Assumption is silly, that's why dpatc referenced very basic mathematical techniques regarding specific details of a well known story. I fail to see where assumption is displayed. Time and place doesn't change astrophysics which operate today as they did in BC. Even speculating Caesars comet suggests a narrative tampering that threatens to discredit the conventional interpretation of the nativity scene.

What can you tell me about this “well known story”
Anything more than wisemen followed a star

Ludicrous you can call it a well known story. Hell you don’t even believe in the bible so just Why?

It may well discredit the narrative to you but you don’t accept it anyway, what’s your point?

Yet another person who has joined the popular platform where, "if we don't believe in Judeo-Christian theology then you can't either!"

Like the above there are many other ancient historians who wrote about Jesus as someone who did/does exist, and had magical powers.

From Pliny the Younger, Cornelius, Suetonius, and Jewish historians, they all attested to the fact that Jesus did exist, that he performed miracles and was seen as a magician even by his enemies, that he was crucified under orders from Pontius Pilate, and that a religion was named after his name "Christianity."

So can we agree that the dogmatic beliefs that the trinity is Father , Jesus and Holy Spirit ! Well if that’s the case the god of the OT and the Torah is a jealous , abbusive and schizophrenic ( kill the Hittites ,thou shall not kill etc... We have original sin and are fallen and corrupt crap and that’s why we have floods , cancer , animals devoured alive in pure terror by predators etc ... So then Jesus dies , because God the father will only accept his own sons torture and death as a mediatrics to our salvation . Jesus said it is done .. but we still get to keep all the ancestral sin and our corrupt nature from Adam’s sin ? Jesus said “ I came to fulfill the law ( OT laws ) not abolish it ! So if the Bible is a true account or even partially true I would until my last breath deny god as it was written ! If there be a god or aliens or whatever of the universe the big 3’s holly books are in direct opposition to love, compassion and common universal order ! Yehwah here .. “ Your not loving and kissing my ass enough so here comes death and punishment “ Ok Yehwah here again... “ I don’t like some people who are in opposition to me so let’s raise Judges and kill all men, women , children and animal that won’t grovel at my feet and kill their best animals for me so as to show your commitment is strong to only me ! Did I forget the flooded earth and millions who drowned except for a dude with 2 of every varmit here on earth including dinosaurs ( opps forgot satan made dinasaur bones so people don’t believe god is full of # ) Then slavery in Egypt , because the people at this point just don’t get it ! Jesus shows up and says I’m sorry DAD had the wrong blue prints when he started building this earth ! I talked to him and if I hang on a tree he will forgive you , but he is still mad so no apology or loosening of the inherited sin . Sorry I did my best ! So before I go pay for all the universe’s sins at the hands of Pilot I’ll leave you with this ! Love each other , but love me the most and even though it sucks Dad wont move on inherited sin it’s ok , because If you work hard enough you may be with me and my father in heaven one day ! So the cross does not save you it just keeps Dad’s killing and plagues at bay ! Rest knowing though god created you out of love ! I know it’s all really sick # , but I’m your god almighty ! So what if I’m abusive and a psycopath !!Im your only hope and I stress hope of any peace in your brutal death or entrance into heaven ! It’s simple guys just “ Work your salvation out in fear and trembling “ WTF ? I’ll gladley go to eternal punishment or destruction faced with worshiping the greatest serial killer ever or as many call him Jesus god the father almighty ! Mic drop !

I heard a story about Thor and I don’t believe it to be non fiction so am I stupid ? Come on Raggedyman You really can do better than this ! Are you even trying ? Your back which is great ! Just tighten up , because you are really not doing the thesis anti thesis stuff correct ! It’s ok we all started in the shallow end ! Well not me I’m part of the pool filling team lol kidding I left the pool years ago and I fly only now ! No more swimming and trying to keep air in my lungs !!

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: DpatC

Seriously? It's a fairy story

That's like spending all that time to prove that the tooth fairy does not exist.

Oh really?... is that why Roman historians, who at the time were pagan, and Jewish historians wrote about him as someone who does exist?...

Publius Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and Senator who detested both Christians and Jews. He wrote a series of books named "the Annals" which dealt mainly with the fire that nearly burned all of Rome in 64 AD.

In book 15 chapter 44 Tacitus wrote:

In his Annals, Tacitus tells of a fire that swept through Rome in the 60s, for which some were blaming Nero himself...

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

www.mesacc.edu...

The above is just one of the many historians who wrote that Jesus exists.

I am am not saying he did not exist, though accounts of him are few and far between. Stories have been recycled through the ages and different old religons before Christianity have similer stories to Jesus.

But we are talking about the fairy tale aspect of his story, as in the star of Bethlehem, and taking a scientific approach to the star itself, which is pointless because it's not real, unless you can prove that it is?

Pilot did not want to kill jesus ! So he left it up to the Sanhedrin who could not kill a prophet so they used the old witch hunt crap on jesus ! You were seen performing evil non Yehwah magic so to the cross you go , but it’s Yehwah’s laws not ours ! Sorry
Jesus ! No person who walked with Jesus the man wrote any books of the bible ! So you can bet the farm that Romans and Greek non Christian authors 50 to 300 years after jesus’s death got his miracles on good authority ! You believe just 2000 years ago a bearded hippie was packing mud into eye sockets and creating eyes or walking on water ? What would happen if you read the Silmarilion ? Would you be posting on forums about the True Elf gods and how real their magic is ? Hermes Trisamagistus is mentioned in many books including some of the oldest and few if any Hermetics believe him to be real . The Bible also states the heavens rotate around earth !! Nice try

It’s so sad the crap a grown human will believe ! You are right on man !

originally posted by: Jay-morris

I am am not saying he did not exist, though accounts of him are few and far between. Stories have been recycled through the ages and different old religons before Christianity have similer stories to Jesus.

So are the stories about other known historical figures. Sometimes things were written about actual historical figures which were later rebuked, and found to have been different. That does not prove he did not exist. Jesus was also crucified as a criminal, so there is no reason for more Roman, pagan, and more Hebrew historians to write more about him.

Even then several historians, both Roman (whom were not Christians) and Jewish, who did write about him as a historical figure. They even mention he did perform miracles, so even these historians stated he was able to perform miracles.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
But we are talking about the fairy tale aspect of his story, as in the star of Bethlehem, and taking a scientific approach to the star itself, which is pointless because it's not real, unless you can prove that it is?

There is no "fairy tale aspect."

Even the investigations done on "The Shroud of Turin" have proven the divinity of Jesus. Many of the experts who studied the shroud and were atheist later became believers. The claim that "the Shroud of Turin was manufactured in Medieval times" has been proven to be misrepresentation by studies done later.

The Shroud of Turin had been allowed to be touched for over a thousand years, and dead cells, and oils from the skin of people who touched it were misrepresented as showing the age of the Shroud, but more in depth research showed it to be much older, from the time of Jesus.

...
To this day, scientists around the world use the data gathered by STURP for their Shroud research. Even the Vatican has stated that the material gathered in 1978 constitutes the official scientific data available for Shroud research and it has no plans to allow any further testing, except in the area of conservation of the cloth itself. Although carbon dating of the Shroud in 1988 yielded a 14th century date, newly discovered information has led many researchers to believe the carbon date is in error. The controversy continues. In any case, no serious study of the Shroud of Turin can ignore the immense volume of scientific facts determined from the 1978 data, and a close look at the 1978 test results must be on the agenda of any intelligent person interested in deciding for himself.
...

shroud.com...

A Summary of STURP's Conclusions

Editor's Note: After years of exhaustive study and evaluation of the data, STURP issued its Final Report in 1981. The following official summary of their conclusions was distributed at the press conference held after their final meeting in October 1981:

No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image. Ultra Violet and infrared evaluation confirm these studies. Computer image enhancement and analysis by a device known as a VP-8 image analyzer show that the image has unique, three-dimensional information encoded in it. Microchemical evaluation has indicated no evidence of any spices, oils, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death. It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with a body, which explains certain features such as scourge marks, as well as the blood. However, while this type of contact might explain some of the features of the torso, it is totally incapable of explaining the image of the face with the high resolution that has been amply demonstrated by photography.

The basic problem from a scientific point of view is that some explanations which might be tenable from a chemical point of view, are precluded by physics. Contrariwise, certain physical explanations which may be attractive are completely precluded by the chemistry. For an adequate explanation for the image of the Shroud, one must have an explanation which is scientifically sound, from a physical, chemical, biological and medical viewpoint. At the present, this type of solution does not appear to be obtainable by the best efforts of the members of the Shroud Team. Furthermore, experiments in physics and chemistry with old linen have failed to reproduce adequately the phenomenon presented by the Shroud of Turin. The scientific concensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the microfibrils of the linen itself. Such changes can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes. A similar type of change in linen can be obtained by sulfuric acid or heat. However, there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately.

Thus, the answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery.

We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved.

shroud.com...

STURP's Published Papers



Meanwhile even Roman, pagan, historians, and even Jewish historians wrote about Jesus as a real person who was able to perform miracles, it is proof like the Shroud of Turin which show his divinity which to this day cannot be explained completely by science.

I still remember how the event which imposed the figure of Jesus was described (more or less): "it is as if his body had become pure energy and in that event his figure( to the smallest detail) was imposed in the Shroud." That was more or less as a scientist who studied the Shroud responded to the question on how he thought the image in the Shroud was made.

a reply to: Jay-morris

BTW, as to your question to "prove" the star of Bethlehem... You are trying to prove a "paranormal event" through physical means.

What you are asking me is similar to "trying to explain Quantum physics with a straw." We simply don't have the knowledge to explain a paranormal event.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The Shroud of Turin has been hotly debated on both sides. There is no evidence that 100% proves how the shroud was made. It is a mystery, but thst does not mean it's the shroud from Christ. As for witnesess who saw Jesus do miracles, that is not proof either. You are talking about things that happend thousands of years ago. Again, this is not proof.

As for Jesus existing, the evidence is slim to say the least. But this is the thing about religon, people will not be swayed most of the time, and they will believe what they want to believe. That's ok, as long as you are not hurting anyone, but for me, it's all nonsense. It's stories, fantasies and nothing more.

Here is a good article

If you believe in Jesus and God, then that's up to you, but there is no evidence what so ever, only belief.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Let me give you another example, on how "normal physics seems to stop occurring" during such paranormal events.

People who have seen the Virgin Mary, by the hundreds, they all have stated to have seen the Sun itself (not another light) dance in the sky at times when she has appeared. Our knowledge of physics would tell us that is impossible, because if it did happen there would be many physical consequences, such as the Earth becoming colder if the sun moved farther away from us, or much hotter if it moved closer to us.

However, one way in which we could explain this is what if "the Virgin Mary" is a being from another dimension who opened a portal into our world? Some people will claim "that's fantasy," but until recently we also thought that other dimensions could not affect us. Yet we now know what happens in other dimensions do affect our world and the physical laws we are familiar with.

For example, it is very possible that the gravity that affects our universe does not entirely comes from our dimension.

Gravity in large extra dimensions
DOE/Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

originally posted by: DpatC
According to the link below mathematical analysis of the concept of following the star of Bethlehalm clearly demonstrates that whoever wrote the account had no understanding whatsoever of astronomy.

The analysis Takes into account that

∙ It is impossible to look up with sufficient accuracy to bring you within 100 km of the house (α = 1°), and far less 10 km (α = 0.1°);
∙ The speed at which one has to travel to follow the projection of the star on the earth exceeds the speed of sound;
∙ The star would remain above the house in Bethlehem for less than a second;
∙ The time frame during which star could appear above the house in Bethlehem is fractionally small. For Venus this period is 58 seconds every 485 days (±15m from the house);
∙ The chance that the star, the earth and Bethlehem could ever align correctly in space and time is infinitesimally small; and
∙ All of this had to coincide with the birth of Christ,

From the analysis it can be concluded that one can categorically state that the possibility of the Magi having located the birthplace of Christ by following a star is identically zero.

www.riaanbooysen.com...

Apply the same logic to every single day how the stars move in a predictable manner to the extent that you can predict cyclical patterns regarding their position in the sky. The closest star is apparently 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000m away from earth and some stars moving supposedly at 2,000,000 mph, yet the night's sky moves so smoothly and predictably.

Obviously this is either the greatest clockwork known in the universe, or stars are not as we assume them to be. Either way, I find the conventional beliefs of stellar orbits to be way beyond a mere coincidence given their supposed velocity and distance. Such equilibrium is mind-boggling.