Taiwan trembling with fear as dragon arms itself

Originally posted by Broadsword20068

Originally posted by COWlan
I have commented on Broadswords posts for some time now but I got tired of posting trying to make him stop his biased and un-informed posts. Do what I do, block him.

.......

Of course there is no such thing as a gov't run by the people in a large country, but each gov't official can be run out of office (i.e. not re-elected) if they do a poor job. And people's public opinion does matter in a democratic republic, as the officials want to get re-elected. With China's government, that does not happen.

As for American media, of course it is biased. But there are a whole bunch of news agencies that have different ideas and different biases....which they express. In China, there is only one media, controlled by the gov't. Big difference.

And no, i'm not going to block you, one always needs another point of view

Look, the issue at stake is not how China isn't a democracy with an accountable government. The fact is we know that, ok.

The issue is really how many countries are using this as an excuse to attack China, mainly due to it's rising military and regional power.

It's human nature to get defensive when attacked, therefore these attacks on human rights have only helped to breed a generation of Anti-US Chinese youths who might have otherwise focussed on human rights.

The US, Japan, Taiwan have stoked tension un-nessersarily in many areas as almost "baits" in an attempt to disrupt China's growth. If you ask why many people want China to transist to Democracy, they would say that it is because then China would be in chaos and split, not unlike the USSR.

Ok, this is essentially the problem for progression of Democracy in China. The US has done more to harm it then to help it. Chinese leaders are now justified to say, "hey, look what happened to the USSR after the US installed democracy".

Originally posted by Odium
China would bomb them till they gave in and only base troops there to stop any form of uprising. Also remember Taiwans force is spread over three islands and they only have 50,000soldiers. It would not need to be anything like D-day/on that scale.

Originally posted by IAF101
Yeah! and the whole world would watch and let the Chinese bomb a democratic state and kill thousands for some vain ideology!!

It would be a repeat of what happened in the Gulf War, the UN declares that china is the aggressor and a coalition is formed with USA leading it, asks china to withdraw in 24hrs- china refuses => USA + allies unleash a wave of aerial and missile strikes all across China. If china retaliates the USA + allies nuke'em and force china to sign some ridiculous treaty and install a democracy. USA will never engage in a land war in Central Asia- thats and unwritten rule the Pentagon obeys!
No, a war with Taiwan would just jepordise their efforts in becomming a modern economic power like those in the west. So I don't think they would go to war knowing that they would lose everything they've worked for in the last 30 years just to satisfy their pride.

Doubtful, with the new chance to sell weapons to China who's to say they won't Veto the vote to go to War with China? The U.N. isn't this 'great', 'amazing', institution.

Originally posted by Odium
As for America getting involved, I'd say on an economic scale not Military. I doubt they'd want a long war, with China that could cause a lot of lost lives in America.

Originally posted by IAF101
Nobody wants war, if taiwan is attacked they will fight back and the can put up good fight, I am sure the PLA is aware of this. As for an economic embargo America economy is quite widely distributed and with a fall of the chinese economy many other nations would benefit greatly [like India,Russia,Brazil,Indonesia etc] , even local business in the US will benefit . Initally the US economy would be hit but later on it would pick up faster as their would be lesser cheap chinese goods for the local companies to contend with. More over the crude prices across teh world would also come down if the chinese industry collapses. The Chinese would be effected drastically because their economy depends mostly on meeting the demands of the US economy and with that gone it would mean economic collapse!
The chinese are aware of these things and know that to acheive their dream of economic prosperity they would have to make scarifices and the international line for the preservation of democracy in Taiwan.

US 21.1%, Hong Kong 17.4%, Japan 13.6%, South Korea 4.6%, Germany 4% (2003) - Don't you think that Europe would easily replace America and Japan for the goods that China sells there? I don't doubt America would replace the goods it buys, in the event they declare war on China although I don't see how they'd be able to cover the gap they leave open. As for the E.U. declaring war, doubtful as they've just began to strike several deals with China - especially Britain.

www.odci.gov... ( These stats include Taiwan as part of China.)

Originally posted by Odium
So what would matter if it was called a democracy? Either you elect people who lie to you and rule over you or they bi-pass this and save you the time of having a pointless vote.

Originally posted by IAF101You still haven’t understood the meaning of democracy, its not just about casting your vote and let things unfold as they like. The right to hold the government/elected officials accountable, the knowledge that you will get justice even if the accused is an elected official, the ability to voice your dissent/criticize government policy and give people a new view point to any situation that one may feel as unjust are what you can't do in Post-Communism/ Neo- Communism / Pre- Democracy [call it what you will!] China.

I actually have an A2 from Oxford on Contemporary politics at an A grade. I understand democracy well enough and if you knew anything about China you might know they're at present reforming its legal system to change that and give the people more rights and freedoms.

Maybe America should do the same or Israel or Britain, etc, etc.

As for 'Democracy' being all 'great'and 'everyone should have it', actually that's a load of bull. Democratic Governments do more harm then good. Look at America...the debt...unemployment rate...re-offender rates(criminals), yet China has a lower percentage with each one of those and a lot smaller debt.

Go Democracy!

Originally posted by rapier28
Look, the issue at stake is not how China isn't a democracy with an accountable government. The fact is we know that, ok.

Good thats a start !

Originally posted by rapier28
The issue is really how many countries are using this as an excuse to attack China, mainly due to it's rising military and regional power.
It's human nature to get defensive when attacked, therefore these attacks on human rights have only helped to breed a generation of Anti-US Chinese youths who might have otherwise focussed on human rights.

If so many countries are attacking china on this issue then their must be some truth to it! I'm sure denial and thinking that other countries are jealous of its development aren't the answer, that’s just plain paranoia!
China should realize its got problems and then try to solve them instead of living in denial, that’s the way to approach the problem. The Chinese are smart people they should understand that "human rights" is a big deal and their credibility depends on it!

Originally posted by rapier28
The US, Japan, Taiwan have stoked tension un-nessersarily in many areas as almost "baits" in an attempt to disrupt China's growth.

They have problems with all their neighbors don' t they ! Why is that?
Oh right! N.Korea is a pretty a good ally, good company!?

Originally posted by rapier28
Ok, this is essentially the problem for progression of Democracy in China. The US has done more to harm it then to help it. Chinese leaders are now justified to say, "hey, look what happened to the USSR after the US installed democracy".

Actually the Russians wanted freedom and Gorbachev tried to appease them but had to finally give into their demands in the end. USA didn't give the Russians their freedom they wanted it and they got it!
I am sure that all the countries that belonged to the Soviet Union are happier now then they had ever been under Soviet rule!

Originally posted by rapier28
Tell me something IAF, If China was a democracy now with say....
Communist Party: Hu Jintao
Socialist Party: Jiang Zemin
Would you feel better?

Not really! I would be happy that atleast all the Chinese have a choice on who governs them on the other hand I would be disappointed that the Chinese couldn't get better people from their 1.3B populace to rule them!

[edit on 5-3-2005 by IAF101]

Originally posted by Odium
US 21.1%, Hong Kong 17.4%, Japan 13.6%, South Korea 4.6%, Germany 4% (2003) - Don't you think that Europe would easily replace America and Japan for the goods that China sells there?

Well, if china does attack Taiwan then countries like the USA, Japan, S.Korea would impose sanctions wouldn't they? SO their goes your whole export market. The EU on the other hand is completely self suffecient to a degree, they trade extensively inside the Union[ thats why things are so costly in Europe ] and any outsider dumping of goods would be a very contentious issue! Also the quality of goods sold in the EU has to be of a higher standard than those needed by the US, moreover you just can't change your exports overnight!

Originally posted by Odium
I actually have an A2 from Oxford on Contemporary politics at an A grade.

..........??

Originally posted by Odium
As for 'Democracy' being all 'great'and 'everyone should have it', actually that's a load of bull. Democratic Governments do more harm then good. Look at America...the debt...unemployment rate...re-offender rates(criminals), yet China has a lower percentage with each one of those and a lot smaller debt.

Its 'great' to live in a Democracy, every one should have it! Unemployment, external debt are all the products of capitalism and every country has them. People don't mind living poor but people can't live without freedom, they need liberty and equality. Those virtues are more important than money, that’s what people from non democratic countries can't understand because they have never experienced them.
Democracy is never a bad idea, sure it has its problems but on the whole the good outweighs the bad.
BTW check the link you provided China has a higher unemployment rate: 10.1% urban unemployment roughly 10%; substantial unemployment and underemployment in rural areas.
Compared to the USA's rate : 6%
These are official figures and china being communist and all I can't say that I trust their figures.

Originally posted by Odium
US 21.1%, Hong Kong 17.4%, Japan 13.6%, South Korea 4.6%, Germany 4% (2003) - Don't you think that Europe would easily replace America and Japan for the goods that China sells there?

Originally posted by IAF101
Well, if china does attack Taiwan then countries like the USA, Japan, S.Korea would impose sanctions wouldn't they? SO their goes your whole export market. The EU on the other hand is completely self suffecient to a degree, they trade extensively inside the Union[ thats why things are so costly in Europe ] and any outsider dumping of goods would be a very contentious issue! Also the quality of goods sold in the EU has to be of a higher standard than those needed by the US, moreover you just can't change your exports overnight!

As for the E.U. having higher standards, China is slowly building up the market that it has in these Countries. But, I was more talking on the fact soon China and Britain will be having a 'language exchange partnership', as well as other things. This is important to the economy of Britain, so I don't see them being willing to Vote to go to war on China if they did invade Taiwan. Also, South Korea can't really impost sanctions on China - it's Power(electricity) they trade to N.K. and S.K. mostly.

Originally posted by Odium
As for 'Democracy' being all 'great'and 'everyone should have it', actually that's a load of bull. Democratic Governments do more harm then good. Look at America...the debt...unemployment rate...re-offender rates(criminals), yet China has a lower percentage with each one of those and a lot smaller debt.

Originally posted by IAF101
Its 'great' to live in a Democracy, every one should have it! Unemployment, external debt are all the products of capitalism and every country has them. People don't mind living poor but people can't live without freedom, they need liberty and equality. Those virtues are more important than money, that’s what people from non democratic countries can't understand because they have never experienced them.
Democracy is never a bad idea, sure it has its problems but on the whole the good outweighs the bad.
BTW check the link you provided China has a higher unemployment rate: 10.1% urban unemployment roughly 10%; substantial unemployment and underemployment in rural areas.
Compared to the USA's rate : 6%
These are official figures and china being communist and all I can't say that I trust their figures.

America only counts those who have been on federal/state assistance as unemployed and after a set amount of months, you stop being counted. It's a good way for them to make it seem as though they have low unemployment. (Only going off of what was on BBC about three months back. So I can't back it up with facts, right now.)

But for Re-offender rates, in Britain it is over 50% and soemthing like 20% come out, being unable to read or write.

Where as, China has a much lower rate for reoffenders (less then 10%) and it also educates them while they're in prison. (Although, I admit the reason it has such a low reoffender rate is due to the conditions but it's better then them being given a free ride.)

As many point out most Taiwanese are (Han Chinese) this gives great bond between this people as for now its known behind both sides of border people have relatives and so on, until now its mostly been about economy and conditions in China compared to Taiwan as its been with Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea one of the "countrys" with under great western influence and trade relations. So now that China leaps the gap between Taiwan and start to show itself more in global politics, make its reforms that bring many new laws and ensure better human rights, i see no reason why wouldnt Taiwanese people join back to mainland to be fully as China or become "special" state, but still part of China officially, same goes for Singapore.

If you look old Chinese emperors they have had conflicts with provinces in history to build up China as it is today and always the big picture has been to flock much as possible people under same ruler to ensure everyones safety and protect em from outside threats. In past wars like Korean war Chinas only goal was to not lose its land, its been known truthout history that China has great strategic position of course on today such make smaller difference. But still China can feed its own people thats cornerstone every country need at least to exist, not to forget all the raw material it has on disposal by its own, only energy seem to be one of the weakest points to ensure steady growth and the unease labor that is expecting improving conditions.

So i dont see any reason why should Taiwan fear China in the end Taiwans future rebellion would only cause their own destruction without even military conflict with China. Taiwanese invest in China same way as others and in future China will push for its own corporations and remove low taxes and such from today high investing corporations from outside and by so gain better control over its own markets, but its still years ahead to happen. So Taiwanese can only win by joining to mainland, unless something dramatic happen in near future.

Many here are so ignorant about the state of foreign countries such as China it's not even funny. Some idiots seem to believe that all Chinese people are hypnotized by the state media and believe that they're living in some sort of Communist utopia or something. Well, boys, in case you didn't notice, China now has something your former vice president "invented", it's called the "internet" and information like what we are typing can be transmitted through this thing called the "internet"! Sure they're still censoring the net in China, but anyone with a spattering knowledge of computers should know that it's impossible to censor even half the stuff online.

Now that I've made my venting, condescending speech, here's something a bit more informative:

Chinese people know what type of government they're living under. They know it's far from perfect, they know the goodness of democracy, and, most importantly, they know completely democracy is not for them yet. Most Chinese people spend much of their free time griping with each other about the corruption and injustice in the Chinese government, but guess what, they'd rather have that than what Russia went through. They(I use "they" because I'm currently living in the states) all understand that it has to come slowly, and they can see that it IS coming along. Someone mentioned that he'd bet that in 20-30 years, we'd see Taiwan's government in Mainland rather than Mainland's government in Taiwan. I agree in principle. It won't be through Taiwan conquering Mainland, of course, but it would be Mainland reforming its government to those standards. 30 years may be a bit soon, but I think within 50 years, we should see it happening unless something drastic changes in international politics.

Originally posted by IAF101
If so many countries are attacking china on this issue then their must be some truth to it!

I'm sure denial and thinking that other countries are jealous of its development aren't the answer, that’s just plain paranoia!
China should realize its got problems and then try to solve them instead of living in denial, that’s the way to approach the problem. The Chinese are smart people they should understand that "human rights" is a big deal and their credibility depends on it!

Whos credibility?

Why do the Chinese need your credibility?

The Chinese have existed as a country for 4000-5000 years? To presume that they should need "credibility" is ludicrious.

They have problems with all their neighbors don' t they ! Why is that?

Oh right! N.Korea is a pretty a good ally, good company!?

I love this, right, remember that war in 1940, jeez? What was it called!!

First of all, Japan and China have NEVER got along, this goes way back to the Ming dynasty or further.

Secondly, China needs a stable korean pennisula, this goes back to the Ming when China helped to defend Korea against General Hirohito of Japan.

As for DPRK being an ally, its all geopolitics.
After all, the US is allied with Saudi, Mexico, and Pakistan.
If you don't understand that concept, take political science 101.

Actually the Russians wanted freedom and Gorbachev tried to appease them but had to finally give into their demands in the end. USA didn't give the Russians their freedom they wanted it and they got it!
I am sure that all the countries that belonged to the Soviet Union are happier now then they had ever been under Soviet rule!

ROFL, right.... USA had nothing to do with the Soviet Union breaking up...

Ok, anything that makes you sleep at night.

Not really! I would be happy that atleast all the Chinese have a choice on who governs them on the other hand I would be disappointed that the Chinese couldn't get better people from their 1.3B populace to rule them!

And you are happy with Bush and Kerry?

Originally posted by Seekerof

Hmmmm.....
Don't know how you got this interpretation, but I am sure that if Chiang Kai-shek was alive today, he would have beat you like there was no tomorrow for twisting and misinterpreting this article.

who needs him with u around ,seeker

I highly doubt that Taiwan is "trembling with fear" in regards to China arming.

taiwan are trembling with fear just the way, usa were trembling with fear when the soviets installed missile bases in Cuba

Stealth Spy, you have a point on Cuba.

as posted by Stealth Spy
taiwan are trembling with fear just the way, usa were trembling with fear when the soviets installed missile bases in Cuba

Just as India is quaking in its boots over Pakistan, eh?
Just as Russia is quaking in its boots over the US, eh?

China is nothing but an overblown toothless dragon.
They continue to build up against Taiwan for one reason and one reason only: FEAR.
China fears that the Nationalist ruling power in Taiwan will once again take control of China, just as when Cheng Kai-shek controlled China.

You can play it as you wish, but China will be playing with more than Taiwan when and if they ever decide to act. China invading Taiwan will be a world turning event and will make the Cuban Missile Crisis look like a simple fairy tale.





seekerof

Man, Taiwan, Taiwan's been a trouble maker for the last god like 400 years. Uprisings like once half a century and the dynastys would send troops and kick their butt.

Seekerof, you seem to know very little about nationalists, currently Nationalists are the ones who wish to reunite with mainland and the Pro-Unification side won by a slight majority a few month ago in the vote for parliament/senate (forgot which one is the one that Taiwan has).

Yeah true.

Taiwan has being problematic for a long, long time.

Everything from foriegn invasions, unfair treaties, civil unrest to civil wars between the Ming and the Qing.

as posted by COWlan
Seekerof, you seem to know very little about nationalists, currently Nationalists are the ones who wish to reunite with mainland and the Pro-Unification side won by a slight majority a few month ago in the vote for parliament/senate (forgot which one is the one that Taiwan has).

No, I think I am pretty much on to which Nationalist I refer to, COWlan:

The civil war resumed and intensified after the Japanese surrender, and when it ended in the Communist Party of China's favor in 1949, Chiang Kai-shek evacuated the nationalist government to the island province of Taiwan....

Republic of China

This might help also:
Nationalist Taiwan

You see, the government of Taiwan is Nationalist. Has been and will continue to be. It (Nationalist Taiwan: Republic of China) seeks to unify China and Taiwan, just as China (Communist China: Peoples Republic of China) seeks the same.

The difference is that one wants it done under Communist authority and rule while the other wants it done under Nationalist authority and rule.




seekerof

[edit on 5-3-2005 by Seekerof]

You know, Taiwan would not have being an issue if Kim-Jong-ill's father didin't attack South Korea. That family has left an enduring legacy on the world stage.

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by COWlan
Seekerof, you seem to know very little about nationalists, currently Nationalists are the ones who wish to reunite with mainland and the Pro-Unification side won by a slight majority a few month ago in the vote for parliament/senate (forgot which one is the one that Taiwan has).

No, I think I am pretty much on to which Nationalist I refer to, COWlan:

The civil war resumed and intensified after the Japanese surrender, and when it ended in the Communist Party of China's favor in 1949, Chiang Kai-shek evacuated the nationalist government to the island province of Taiwan....

Republic of China

This might help also:
Nationalist Taiwan

You see, the government of Taiwan is Nationalist. Has been and will continue to be. It (Nationalist Taiwan: Republic of China) seeks to unify China and Taiwan, just as China (Communist China: Peoples Republic of China) seeks the same.

The difference is that one wants it done under Communist authority and rule while the other wants it done under Nationalist authority and rule.




seekerof

[edit on 5-3-2005 by Seekerof]

That's not quite true, the nationalist party has been losing power ever since Taiwan established true democracy. The president is now from a different party, and the majority party coalition in the parliament also doesn't include the nationalists. I think the prevailing theme in both Taiwan and the Mainland is a desire to keep the status quo, they'd hate to have to kill other Han people.

If China attacks Taiwan it will be World War 3...

Why?... because the US will get involved in something that has nothing to do with it!... and China would win the war or the world would get destroyed in the process.

Think about it, China could easily surrender 300 000 troops or more as POW's then the US would go broke trying to feed them all...

True...it could starve America! Or it could stop selling oil to America? Or stop selling anythign to America?

Also, remember Main Land China, keeps moving people to Taiwan so come next election a 'certain', party might just win and this problem could be avoided.

And China wouldn't attack like most people think. It'd send every one of those missiles it has pointed at Taiwan and destroy most the defence of the Island before invading.

They'd not just blindely fly over the Island with its SAMs still operational.

US would not loose to china first off US has Way bigger navy with Much better Technology And US has the Largest and Best Airforce while china has alot of airplanes they only have a handful of 3rd and 4th generation fighters that are combat ready, and plus not to mention that while our focus is on Terrorism That if a country does something to Unite the US they best be gettin the # out of the way, not only does the US fight but so do our allies all of the US and all allies would be 20,000+ fighters and bombers not uncluding Navy planes or any planes in reserves 80,000+ tanks and armored Vehicles and about 7.5 million well trained troops, china has alot to loose by pikin a fight with the US however I am in no support of Going to war with anyone.

Originally posted by zakattack
US would not loose to china first off US has Way bigger navy with Much better Technology And US has the Largest and Best Airforce while china has alot of airplanes they only have a handful of 3rd and 4th generation fighters that are combat ready, and plus not to mention that while our focus is on Terrorism That if a country does something to Unite the US they best be gettin the # out of the way, not only does the US fight but so do our allies all of the US and all allies would be 20,000+ fighters and bombers not uncluding Navy planes or any planes in reserves 80,000+ tanks and armored Vehicles and about 7.5 million well trained troops, china has alot to loose by pikin a fight with the US however I am in no support of Going to war with anyone.

I will say this, once and once only: sentence structure.

“Current Russian fighters are already on par with America’s best fighter, the F-15. Europe's and Russia's newest class of fighters will surpass the F-15; they are set to roll off production lines by 2005.” www.f22-raptor.com...

China is pretty much on the same level as the top Russian fighters as well, until the Next Generation of Russian Aircraft come out. So America doesn’t actually have ‘best airforce’ as you put it, till the F-22 Raptor is in service and they have how many of those? 12 at the moment (as far as I know).

Also, why would attacking Taiwan ‘Unite the U.S’ it would still have as many people not wanting to go to war as say Iraq. That united the U.S. didn’t it?

As for ‘All of America’s Allies Fighting China’ who? I live in Britain, the political sentiment over here for America would cause a riot if we went to war on their side again. Spain, France, etc would not join a war against China.

Also, please show me how you work out 7.5million soldiers would be invading China. List of countries please. Because, well France, Germany, Russia wouldn’t - they love the money they’ll now be earning because of China and the E.U’s lifting of the Arms Embargo on the PRoC.

Also how would they get 7.5million people to invade? With what? There are not enough landing craft in the world to do this and the only other way would be to get them to cross through India, Burma or Russia.

Russia’s off the list. So is India as most of its borders with China runs along the Himalayan mountain range (from what I know.) it’d be wise to have them invade there, wouldn’t it?

And it doesn’t matter how good you think their Navy is, it’d be foolish for America to move to many ships to that part of the world. All it would take, would be the sinking of their aircraft carriers and the invasions ruined. Not hard with the new Type 094.

America can’t invade China. It can’t beat China back out of Taiwan if they ever got onto it without causing massive Taiwanese casualties - which wouldn’t be acceptable and they can’t do it well they’ve ostracised a lot of their former allies and have a high percentage of troops in places such as Iraq.

The best they could do, would be to do bombing runs on ‘Mainland China’ and who honestly thinks that China won’t have a lot more SAM sites up and running before they attack Taiwan? (Probably S-400) which will not have a problem taking out frontline U.S. fighters and possible B-2’s.

Sorry kid, but you need to read up on the world a bit more. America doesn’t have a mass of Allies willing to help it anymore. The way it was united after September the 11th is now gone due to the way the Bush administration run things. They have caused divisions in Europe and are angering Russia + most of the Middle East. They’d be on their own, or with very few allies (if they got lucky.).

Sorry, Zakattack didn't mean to sound so nasty with the first bit...but you need to run it through word and break it all up.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Odium]