What comes after Heaven or Hell

originally posted by: whereislogic
2 Peter 2:4 also shows that because angels can sin, we know that they have free will (otherwise you cannot sin or disobey God). The logic works the same regarding Jude 6 and there are many more bible texts like that.

So you claim Jesus lied when he called angels, "the holy angels" in Luke 9:26 and Mark 8:38? Also, the holy angels are mentioned in Psalm 103:20 and Isaiah. Are they lie too? Surely if the angels are capable to sin, then they are not holy, are they? Or do you regard The Holy Spirit also subjected to imperfection and sinful will, because holy has no divine value to you? And what about angels dwell in the presence of God in Matthew 18:10? Surely it must be a lie also, because nothing imperfect can dwell in His presence.

Psalm 5:4-7
4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness;
with you, evil people are not welcome.
5 The arrogant cannot stand
in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
6 you destroy those who tell lies.
The bloodthirsty and deceitful
you, Lord, detest.

a reply to: EasternShadow

I can fly
But I want his wings
I can shine even in the darkness
But I crave the light that he brings
Revel in the songs that he sings
My angel Gabriel

I can love
But I need his heart
I am strong even on my own
But from him I never want to part
He's been there since the very start
My angel Gabriel
My angel Gabriel

So the 3 books of Enoch -

1. The Ethiopic Book of Enoch
2. The Slavonic Secrets of Enoch
3. The Hebrew Book of Enoch

Would anyone care to open debate on the above?

a reply to: DpatC

4. The sixteen Enochian Keys.

originally posted by: DpatC
a reply to: EasternShadow

I can fly
But I want his wings
I can shine even in the darkness
But I crave the light that he brings
Revel in the songs that he sings
My angel Gabriel

I can love
But I need his heart
I am strong even on my own
But from him I never want to part
He's been there since the very start
My angel Gabriel
My angel Gabriel

So the 3 books of Enoch -

1. The Ethiopic Book of Enoch
2. The Slavonic Secrets of Enoch
3. The Hebrew Book of Enoch

Would anyone care to open debate on the above?

Nice poem? Or is it a song lyrics? It touches my heart.

Ah.. The love of the fallen one.

Let's start with The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 1–36). Shall we?

originally posted by: EasternShadow

So you claim Jesus lied when he called angels, "the holy angels" in Luke 9:26 and Mark 8:38? Also, the holy angels are mentioned in Psalm 103:20 and Isaiah. Are they lie too?

No and no. And I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse about this, so I'll leave it at that. 2 Peter 2:4 is as clear as crystal. You can't be talking about the angels who sinned if angels can't sin, period.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: EasternShadow

So you claim Jesus lied when he called angels, "the holy angels" in Luke 9:26 and Mark 8:38? Also, the holy angels are mentioned in Psalm 103:20 and Isaiah. Are they lie too?

No and no. And I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse about this, so I'll leave it at that. 2 Peter 2:4 is as clear as crystal. You can't be talking about the angels who sinned if angels can't sin, period.

Then why is Peter contradict with Mark, Luke, Psalm and Isaiah? Care to explain?

a reply to: EasternShadow
There is no contradiction. Calling someone holy doesn't mean they can't or couldn't sin. Thats just your interpretation of the word "holy". And the interpretation of someone who just wants to shift the blame for sin (and its evil effects; such as disease and death) to God and discredit the bible while they're at it, is not particularly reliable.

God is not at fault for the suffering of his creations (disease, death, etc.). He is not the cause.

Leviticus 19:2

2 “Speak to the entire assembly of the Israelites and tell them, ‘You should be holy, because I, Jehovah your God, am holy.

But what exactly does it mean to be holy?
...
According to the Bible reference work Insight on the Scriptures, “the original Hebrew [word] qoʹdhesh conveys the thought of separateness, exclusiveness, or sanctification to God, . . . a state of being set aside to the service of God.”

Source: ‘You Must Be Holy Because I Am Holy’

Holiness Is Required by Jehovah

IS HOLINESS too much for God to expect from his servants? Is it possible for ordinary humans like ourselves to achieve holiness and then maintain that quality? If so, is it worth the effort? Who really are holy? Just what is holiness?

The English words “holy” and “holiness” are renderings of words drawn from a Hebrew root verb having the meaning, in a physical sense, “to be bright, to be new or fresh, untarnished or clean.” In the Bible, however, these words are used mainly in a spiritual or moral sense. Accordingly, holiness carries the thought of sacredness, or moral and spiritual cleanness. It denotes also separation or sanctification to God, a state of being set aside to the service of God.
...
Jehovah is the “Most Holy One,” superior to all others in holiness. (Prov. 30:3) ...
...
Since Jehovah God is the basis for all holiness, any thing or object that is holy becomes so because of its relationship to him and his worship. For example, Jehovah’s active force or spirit is subject to his control and always accomplishes his purposes. It is pure, sacred and set apart for God’s good use. Therefore it is called “holy spirit” and “the spirit of holiness.”​—Ps. 51:11; Rom. 1:4.
...
In addition, since the Bible was written under the direction of God’s spirit, it also is holy. It is called “the holy Scriptures,” or “holy writings.” (Rom. 1:2; 2 Tim. 3:15) Do you treat the Bible as such? When you read it, do you consider what is said with the reverence and respect due God’s “holy writings”?

Other things, too, by reason of their sanctification for Jehovah’s service have been constituted holy. For example, under God’s Law to the nation of Israel the firstborn male of cattle, sheep or goats were counted as holy to Jehovah. (Num. 18:17-19) Likewise the altar of sacrifice, the anointing oil, the special incense, the showbread and other things closely connected with God’s worship were made holy by Jehovah’s decree.​—Ex. 29:37; 30:25, 35, 37; 1 Sam. 21:4.

This did not mean that these things had holiness of themselves, to be used as a charm or fetish. For example, one of the primary holy objects, the ark of the covenant, proved to be no charm when Eli’s two wicked sons carried it into battle against the Philistines.​—1 Sam. 4:3-11.
...
JESUS AND CHRISTIAN “HOLY ONES”

By means of their relationship with him, Jehovah’s heavenly angels are holy. (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26) The chief one among these heavenly ones, however, is in a special sense God’s Holy One. His holiness came from his Father when Jehovah created him as his only-begotten Son. (John 1:1, 14) Later, when announcing to Mary this one’s coming birth as a human and that his name should be called “Jesus,” the angel Gabriel also told Mary: “What is born will be called holy.”​—Luke 1:31, 35.

Not only was Jesus Christ holy while in heaven, but throughout his earthly life he maintained his holiness, even to a sacrificial death. (Acts 3:14; Heb. 7:26) Thus God made it possible for others on earth to attain holiness, to achieve a righteous standing with God such as Jesus held. The Bible speaks of ones formerly defiled by wicked works as achieving holiness, saying:

“Indeed, you who were once alienated and enemies because your minds were on the works that were wicked, he now has again reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through his death, in order to present you holy and unblemished and open to no accusation before him, provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, established on the foundation and steadfast and not being shifted away from the hope of that good news which you heard.”​—Col. 1:21-23.

Holiness, therefore, does not belong to them through their own merit, but comes to them through Jesus Christ. (Rom. 3:23-26) They receive holiness as a result of their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. (Phil. 3:9; 1 John 1:7) God applies the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice in their behalf immediately, forgiving them all their sins, and, by judicial act on his part, imputes human perfection to them. They become Jehovah’s anointed ones, the spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, and are called “holy ones” or “saints.”​—Rom. 15:26; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 4:21; compare these verses in the King James or Authorized Version.
...

peace as heaven and hell are at war.

The post op vajayjay

a reply to: Parishna


That first 20 seconds when You wake up is the "true You" the "Eternal You"...

From Pardeep:


YOUR REAL SELF
In mysticism that alone is real which never changes.

While anything subject to change is unreal.

By such definition the body and mind are unreal, as both are subject to change.

If you relax with no body sensations, awareness (consciousness) of awareness alone remains.

If you empty your mind even for one second, awareness (consciousness) alone remains.

As the screen is seen when the movie stops

Awareness is realized when thoughts stop.

Only awareness can be aware of awareness (in silence).

Only consciousness can be conscious of consciousness (in silence).

Before this body, you were aware (as consciousness).

While in this body, you are aware (as consciousness).

After this body, you will remain aware (as consciousness).

Your real Self is always eternal consciousness.


by Pardeep

*** Bonus **** How to Self Realize in 1 second:

SELF REALIZE IN 1 SECOND
You are consciousness dreaming.

To realize your true Self, simply be still, close your eyes, silence your mind of all concepts.

When your mind is empty of thoughts, all that remains is that you are still aware (conscious).

'I Am that I Am' - means:

I exist because I am Existence.

I am conscious because I am Consciousness.

I am aware because I am Awareness.

Mind silent, remain conscious of your consciousness, even with eyes open engaged in action.

Thoughts alone are the veiling curtain.

And their cessation alone opens the curtain.

It may seem difficult to empty the mind, but everyone can accomplish that for at least one second.

And during one second of stillness, all that remains is you are still aware.

Gradually one second expands, coloring you at all times.

Just one second can change a life.


by Pardeep


But Stay Hydrated whilst in Your "skin suit"...

a reply to: JimNasium

Nice, thank you! All that's left is the self in the end despite the journey.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: DpatC
a reply to: EasternShadow

I can fly
But I want his wings
I can shine even in the darkness
But I crave the light that he brings
Revel in the songs that he sings
My angel Gabriel

I can love
But I need his heart
I am strong even on my own
But from him I never want to part
He's been there since the very start
My angel Gabriel
My angel Gabriel

So the 3 books of Enoch -

1. The Ethiopic Book of Enoch
2. The Slavonic Secrets of Enoch
3. The Hebrew Book of Enoch

Would anyone care to open debate on the above?

Nice poem? Or is it a song lyrics? It touches my heart.

Ah.. The love of the fallen one.

Let's start with The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 1–36). Shall we?

Not a bad place to start, lets see what everyone else thinks -- a true story last time i asked Gabriel to "visit" jerusalem his recoendation was to destroy the place..I didnt listen..this time im not sure what the Angel is going to come back with, but well ..can i ask you a question..have you.ever rolled dice with the devil?
www.youtube.com...:

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: EasternShadow
There is no contradiction. Calling someone holy doesn't mean they can't or couldn't sin. Thats just your interpretation of the word "holy". And the interpretation of someone who just wants to shift the blame for sin (and its evil effects; such as disease and death) to God and discredit the bible while they're at it, is not particularly reliable.

This is the interpretation of "Holy" given by Merriam-Webster and similar online dictionary:

Definition of holy

1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : DIVINE
for the Lord our God is holy
—Psalms 99:9 (King James Version)
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity
a holy temple
holy prophets

There is nothing wrong with my interpretation. It seems Peter, Jude and you are suggesting that angels are not perfect in their righteous and goodness, because they can have sinful desire. This theory not only contradict Psalm, Isaiah, Luke, Mark and Matthew, but also ignore that angels are messengers and God's representatives. Also angels dwell in heaven together with God, and as David said in Psalm; there is no sin or evil in heaven. So what is the purpose of angels having free will if God forbids sin in heaven? Sin is punishable by death, but how can it be applied to the immortal angels? You do know, Satan can't die?

originally posted by: whereislogic
God is not at fault for the suffering of his creations (disease, death, etc.). He is not the cause.

I didn't say God is the cause.

originally posted by: whereislogic
Holiness Is Required by Jehovah
IS HOLINESS too much for God to expect from his servants? Is it possible for ordinary humans like ourselves to achieve holiness and then maintain that quality? If so, is it worth the effort? Who really are holy? Just what is holiness?

The English words “holy” and “holiness” are renderings of words drawn from a Hebrew root verb having the meaning, in a physical sense, “to be bright, to be new or fresh, untarnished or clean.” In the Bible, however, these words are used mainly in a spiritual or moral sense. Accordingly, holiness carries the thought of sacredness, or moral and spiritual cleanness. It denotes also separation or sanctification to God, a state of being set aside to the service of God.
...
Jehovah is the “Most Holy One,” superior to all others in holiness. (Prov. 30:3) ...
...
Since Jehovah God is the basis for all holiness, any thing or object that is holy becomes so because of its relationship to him and his worship. For example, Jehovah’s active force or spirit is subject to his control and always accomplishes his purposes. It is pure, sacred and set apart for God’s good use. Therefore it is called “holy spirit” and “the spirit of holiness.”​—Ps. 51:11; Rom. 1:4.
...

See? Even this article agree with my interpretation. So how is angels suppose to be holy if they can be tarnished by sin and disobediences to God's command? There answer is, they can't be.

It's strange, you can come up with an article explaining the word holy in great details, yet still fail to apply that to angels.

originally posted by: whereislogicJESUS AND CHRISTIAN “HOLY ONES”

By means of their relationship with him, Jehovah’s heavenly angels are holy. (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26)

That is right. Now try to apply that to 2 Peter's "angels can sin."

originally posted by: whereislogic
Holiness, therefore, does not belong to them through their own merit, but comes to them through Jesus Christ. (Rom. 3:23-26) They receive holiness as a result of their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. (Phil. 3:9; 1 John 1:7) God applies the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice in their behalf immediately, forgiving them all their sins, and, by judicial act on his part, imputes human perfection to them. They become Jehovah’s anointed ones, the spiritual brothers of Jesus Christ, and are called “holy ones” or “saints.”​—Rom. 15:26; Eph. 1:1; Phil. 4:21; compare these verses in the King James or Authorized Version.
...

Bingo. Holiness is granted and cannot be gained by own merit. So, how is it angels are holy if they can sin? Sin is uncleanness, remember? Being pure, untarnished and in presence of Holy God in heaven, mean angels cant sin.

2 Peter is either wrong or sarcastic to his readers.

originally posted by: DpatC
Not a bad place to start, lets see what everyone else thinks -- a true story last time i asked Gabriel to "visit" jerusalem his recoendation was to destroy the place..I didnt listen..this time im not sure what the Angel is going to come back with, but well ..

I was thinking about the Watchers. The original so-called angels who came down to earth and began the rebellion against God. Somehow, there seem to be interesting link between them and ancient Sumerian, either historical or theological.

originally posted by: DpatC
can i ask you a question..have you.ever rolled dice with the devil?
www.youtube.com...:

I don't normally communicate with the devils. They are very hostile and aggressive to me. Well.. Not every single one of them. The devils mostly don't really please with my presence.

But I do make very rare exception to one or maybe two devils.

Why do you gamble with the devil? What is your deal?

a reply to: EasternShadow

1. The words of the blessing of Enoch, with which he blessed the elect and righteous, who

will be living in the day of tribulation,when all the wicked and godless people are to be

removed

2. And he began his story saying: (I am) Enoch,a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by

God,and who saw the vision of the Holy One in heaven, which the angels showed me. And I

heard everything from the, and I saw and understood, but it was not for this generation,but

for a remote one which is to come

3. As I began my story concerning the elect I said,The Holy Great one will come out from

his dwelling

4. And the eternal God will tread on the earth and appear in the strength of His might from

Heaven.

5. And all shall be very afraid. The Watchers shall shake, and great fear and trembling

shall seize them all the way to the ends of the earth

6. And the high Mountains shall be shaken, and the high hills shall be laid low,and shall

melt like wax in the flame

7. And the earth shall be completely torn apart, and all that is on the earth shall be

destroyed. And there shall be a judgement on all

Revelation 21: 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will

be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually

immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be

in the firey lake of burning sulfur. THis is the second death.

8. But with the righteous he will make peace;and will protect the elect and mercy shall be
f

on them. And they shall all belong to God, and they shall prosper, and they shall be

blessed. And the LIGHT of God shall shine on them

Revelation 21:23 The City does not need the sun or moon to shine on it, for the Glory of

God gives it LIGHT and the lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by it's LIGHT and the

Kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

9. And behold! The Pogues started to sing about about falling from the grace of GOD

www.youtube.com...

With all this talk about Angels and sin I was wondering has anyone ever wondered about the application of the calendar of Enoch to the prophecy of Daniel?
Gabriel again, I need to find that Angel more interesting things to do!

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: DpatC
Not a bad place to start, lets see what everyone else thinks -- a true story last time i asked Gabriel to "visit" jerusalem his recoendation was to destroy the place..I didnt listen..this time im not sure what the Angel is going to come back with, but well ..

I was thinking about the Watchers. The original so-called angels who came down to earth and began the rebellion against God. Somehow, there seem to be interesting link between them and ancient Sumerian, either historical or theological.

originally posted by: DpatC
can i ask you a question..have you.ever rolled dice with the devil?
www.youtube.com...:

I don't normally communicate with the devils. They are very hostile and aggressive to me. Well.. Not every single one of them. The devils mostly don't really please with my presence.

But I do make very rare exception to one or maybe two devils.

Why do you gamble with the devil? What is your deal?

Bingo you are on the money with the sumerian connection!
with regards to betting I bet with the devil every day, Take your pick Sameal, Azazeal, Lucifer etc You won't believe this but we bet for Charity, everyone has their favourite causes so for Exsample if I lose a bet to say Azazeal, I have to either donate my time or make a financial donation to whatever cause Azazeal is supporting. At the moment its the Heart Foundation

a reply to: DpatC
Azazeal support Heart Foundation?

Hmm... That's quite a noble cause. Have you ever question his motive for charity?

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: DpatC
Azazeal support Heart Foundation?

Hmm... That's quite a noble cause. Have you ever question his motive for charity?

To be compleatly honest No I have never questioned his motives. I suppose it's a trust thing and giving people the benifit of the doubt.I suspect that the Heart is a cause we can all believe in. If he #'s me over I will only look a bigger fool to those that have advised me not to give him a second chance.
Time will tell...
May i ask what kind of concerns would you have?

originally posted by: Damla
a reply to: DpatC

After that there is a war

in your mind, or what is left of it and how much it was messed up by religion