What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

Hay Joecroft,

I can best recommend Abdul-Baha’s reply to this question.

I did read through a number of the responses but did not come away with any clear picture of what the Trinity was.

When I visualize his description it dose not seem so mysterious.

“The Trinity

Question: What is the meaning of the Trinity and of its three Persons?

Answer: The reality of the Divinity is sanctified and exalted beyond the comprehension of all created things, can in no wise be imagined by mortal mind and understanding, and transcends all human conception. That reality admits of no division, for division and multiplicity are among the characteristics of created and hence contingent things, and not accidents impinging upon the Necessary Being.

The reality of the Divinity is sanctified above singleness, then how much more above plurality. For that divine reality to descend into stations and degrees would be tantamount to deficiency, contrary to perfection, and utterly impossible. It has ever been, and will ever remain, in the loftiest heights of sanctity and purity. All that is mentioned regarding the manifestation and revelation of God pertains to the effulgence of His light and not to a descent into the degrees of existence.

God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror.

All created things are resplendent signs of God. For instance, the rays of the sun shine upon all earthly things, yet the light that falls upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits is only in such measure as to make them visible, to ensure their growth, and to cause them to attain the object of their existence. The Perfect Man, however, is even as a clear mirror in which the Sun of Truth is revealed and manifested in the fullness of its attributes and perfections. Thus the reality of Christ was a bright and polished mirror of the greatest purity and clarity. The Sun of Truth, the Essence of the Divinity, appeared in that mirror and manifested its light and heat therein, yet it did not descend from the heights of holiness and the heaven of sanctity to reside within it. No, it continues to abide in its loftiness and sublimity, but has been revealed and manifested in the mirror in all its beauty and perfection.

Now, if we were to say that we have beheld the Sun in two mirrors—one Christ and the other the Holy Spirit—or, in other words, that we have seen three Suns—one in heaven and two upon the earth—we would be speaking the truth. And if we were to say that there is only one Sun, that it is absolute singleness, and that it has no peer or partner, we would again be speaking the truth.

The purport of our words is that the reality of Christ was a clear mirror wherein the Sun of Truth—that is, the divine Essence—appeared and shone forth with infinite perfections and attributes. It is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, was ever divided or multiplied—for it remains one—but it became manifest in the mirror. That is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son”, meaning that that Sun is manifest and visible in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the outpouring grace of God which was revealed and manifested in the reality of Christ. Prophethood is the station of the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of His spirit. It is thus evident and established that the Essence of the Divinity is absolute oneness and has no peer, equal, or likeness.

This is the true meaning of the three Persons of the Trinity. Otherwise, the foundations of the religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which no mind could ever conceive, and how could the mind be required to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? Such a thing could not be grasped by human reason—how much less be clothed in an intelligible form—but would remain sheer fancy.

Now, this explanation clarifies the meaning of the three Persons of the Trinity and establishes at the same time the oneness of God.

Regards,

Only...

“When you make the two into one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and what is above like what is below, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make a pair of eyes in place of one eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter.”

There's a mystery for you! Who said it? And enter what?

The Trinity is surely a mystery. Did you know? The Vulcan hand signal by Spock in Star Trek is also used by the Jews in the Synagogue. They all close their eyes and make the Vulcan hand signal with both hands. When they do that the Feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit enters the Synagogue. If you peek during this ceremony you could be blinded.

a reply to: lostinspace

That would be from the gospel of Thomas...

And i believe "Jesus" meant "you will enter into understanding"

The soul and the spirit reside in the same space... Tis within

And the gnostic writers weren't trinitarian... by the way

a reply to: Akragon

The gospel of John sways toward the Gnostic side compared to the three Synoptic gospels. So John wasn't a Trinitarian either?

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: whereislogic

So what your saying is that Trinitarians have completely misinterpreted those verses in Isaiah 44.6.

Which is quite common and usually called eisegesis (reading something into the text that one wants to believe without understanding, on blind faith, in this case justifying the inability to explain it purely with Scripture by calling it a mystery, more on that later cause someone else in this thread described it even better). They're desperately looking for something that isn't there. Even messing up their translation or cherry-picking a translation that has a comma in a weird place (When to Use Comma Before "And": Grammarly). Notice the difference in these translations:

KJV

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

NIV

"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

ISV

This is what the LORD says, the King of Israel and its Redeemer— the LORD of the Heavenly Armies is his name— "I am the first and I am the last, and apart from me there is no God.

Note that the latter 2 translations (and all similar translations) are much harder to twist to make it appear that more than 1 individual is being referred to. Anyway, there's another clue (other than the clear identification of Jehovah as Jacob's/Israel's Repurchaser, i.e. "his Repurchaser" in verses 23 and 24). Which relates to something Deetermined said:

The Lord AND HIS redeemer are claiming one statement. That THEY together as one are one god.

If it really is "THEY" making that statement, why doesn't the statement say: we are the first and we are the last, apart from us there is no God. To me it's clear it's not "they", there is only 1 individual making a statement here. Of course, that's not going to have much effect on Trinitarians who have their standard answer ready for all the times a sentence concerning "God" is "construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute" (and you see: I, me, mine, He, etc.). God never refers to himself as "we ...".

When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”​—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.

Source: God: Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1

Anyway, what is the mystery or the truth of the Trinity in your opinion…?

I guess the only mystery here is how some Trinitarians come away thinking they're making sense when talking in contradictions and promoting Pagan Greek philosophies and philosophical concepts by just implying that these teachings were revealed to them by holy spirit (or "The Holy Ghost" as some of them would think), and that it's just "a mystery of faith" as some say, i.e. you have to take it on (blind) faith (without spelling out the "blind" part). Even with all the warnings in the bible about those talking in contradictions, promoting (human) philosophy and worshipping the creation rather than the Creator. Jesus being the first created being that Jehovah created, "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15), "the beginning of the creation by God" (Rev.3:14). Anyway, Isurrender73 was right when he said:

The mystery is the church can't fully explain it but they invested heavily into the ideology that stands in direct contradiction to what Jesus said about himself so they call it a mystery rather than try to explain it rationally.

Which is also why so many Trinitarians are eager to accept that way of thinking.
He also mentioned:

The real mystery. Why does anyone still believe an interpretation that came from the Church of Constantine 2700 years ago that they can't properly explain in the first place?

Which to me is not so much a mystery. The bible is quite clear on how Satan's deception works, what effect it would have (in terms of numbers, see for example Mt 7:13,14), how to recognize it and another clue in Revelation 17:5:

5 On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.”

It's Satan who wants to be mysterious and vague about every biblical subject, including himself and the identity, attributes and position of God and Jesus. He loves general agnosticism as well, as if you can't be certain about anything, including things like the exact understanding of God being a Trinity. He wants to keep people confused and in the dark. And believing things without understanding. And he's got a whole team of demons and human pawns to help him out.

Jude 10-13

But these men are speaking abusively about all the things they really do not understand. And in all the things that they do understand by instinct like unreasoning animals, they go on corrupting themselves.

11 Too bad for them, for they have followed the path of Cain and have rushed into the erroneous course of Baʹlaam for reward, and they have perished in the rebellious talk of Korʹah! 12 These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice* [Or “being completely dead.”] and having been uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.

2 Peter 3:16

speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant* [Or “untaught.”] and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And there's 2 Timothy 4:3,4, which I've already quoted on this forum dozens of times. It's the easiest one to notice on ATS. Or the most glaring, blatant, in your face? I guess that's in the eye of the beholder, I like it. Been considering changing my signature to it instead.

2 Cor. 11:12-15

But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis* [Or “pretext.”] for being found equal to us in the things* [Or “the office.”] about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: Akragon

The gospel of John sways toward the Gnostic side compared to the three Synoptic gospels. So John wasn't a Trinitarian either?

Nope... he wasn't...

Nor were any of the apostles... Not even Paul

a reply to: Joecroft
What the man in video below mentions at 1:00 regarding "selective use of the bible" also counts for selective use of specific bible translations (keeping the example translations for Isaiah 44:6 that I used in my previous comment in mind):

I think he's an atheist or agnostic. It's the way he phrases a few things, like suggesting that there are certain bible texts that can be interpreted to support the Trinity (but neglecting to mention that even those involve some major twisting and biased thinking+eisegesis, as in the Isaiah 44:6 example, or John 1:1c). He also seems to imply that 'the most one can say, is that these texts would contradict the bible texts that do not support a Trinitarian conception of God', but that isn't true either, cause they don't contradict those other verses, cause neither teach or support "a Trinitarian conception of God", as he puts it. So he neglects to mention that in his 'the most one can say'.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: Akragon

The gospel of John sways toward the Gnostic side compared to the three Synoptic gospels. So John wasn't a Trinitarian either?

Nope... he wasn't...

Nor were any of the apostles... Not even Paul

Someone needs to call the Pope and tell him the Catholic church has it all wrong. Their founding fathers, the apostles believed something different than them.

Many years ago a trinitarian told me the sun actually turned off when Jesus died. He said the sun can't produce sunlight without the Son (Jesus) being alive in some form or another. That would also mean all the stars in the milkyway galaxy would have to turn off too. I know the account said it went dark for 3 hours but I bet it was a localized event with thick cloud cover.

a reply to: lostinspace

Someone needs to call the Pope and tell him the Catholic church has it all wrong. Their founding fathers, the apostles believed something different than them.

I can only assume they are well read as far as the bible is concerned...

So don't worry, they know all about it

Many years ago a trinitarian told me the sun actually turned off when Jesus died. He said the sun can't produce sunlight without the Son (Jesus) being alive in some form or another. That would also mean all the stars in the milkyway galaxy would have to turn off too. I know the account said it went dark for 3 hours but I bet it was a localized event with thick cloud cover.

Or perhaps it didn't happen at all...

a reply to: whereislogic

Funny how you keep ignoring these other verses and only turn to your Jehovah's Witness New World Translation to try and debunk it.

Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

When there appear to be two people making a combined single statement, it only confirms that these two or three are ONE, but you're not capable of understanding that.

Revelation 21:22-23

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: Akragon

The gospel of John sways toward the Gnostic side compared to the three Synoptic gospels. So John wasn't a Trinitarian either?

Yes, John recognized Jesus as part of the Trinity when he writes...

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:6-9

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 14:16-18

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS: "I" WILL COME TO YOU.

Jesus IS the "other" and the Comforter (Holy Spirit) himself as he states in verse 18.

John 14:26

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in MY NAME, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

a reply to: Akragon

Nor were any of the apostles... Not even Paul

Yes, even Paul understood what you do not...

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Luke 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Notice in the verse above, it's only through the SON that the FATHER is revealed and the SON is the only one who is capable of revealing that information to others.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul knew, but you always claimed him to be a heretic because you have never understood the words he wrote. Paul taught the same gospel as Jesus and the other disciples.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: whereislogic

Funny how you keep ignoring these other verses and only turn to your Jehovah's Witness New World Translation to try and debunk it.

Not so funny that you make that false accusation in response to a comment where I used 2 other translations for Isaiah 44:6 that clearly show that Jehovah is both Israel's King and Redeemer/Repurchaser (along with the other verses I quoted earlier that show the same thing in all translations, except that most don't mention Jehovah by name, which helps a bit with obscuration; I don't want to quote too much from bibles that won't call God by his only personal name, it obscures matters if you want to be extra clear; also I was responding to Joecroft, who nicely included some Hebrew mentioning "Yěhovah", I wanted to stay consistent in the other verses that we're talking about Jehovah being the Repurchaser of Israel and King of Israel, not just any LORD or anyone called "Lord").

And I could have used more from the biblehub website but since the comment was for Joecroft and I already made my point to him I didn't bother. Also you can see it in the Hebrew he posted, the Hebrew just has "King - of Israel - Redeemer/Repurchaser - Jehovah - of armies/hosts". Of course the translation (interlinear) to english he uses adds "and his" to the word for "Redeemer/Repurchaser" to already make it a more readable sentence in English, that's not a direct translation. The grammatical reason for adding "of" to "Israel" can be spotted if you know a bit about Hebrew, which incidentally also shows that it means 'King of Israel and Redeemer/Repurchaser of Israel', but I don't see much point in elaborating on that. Btw, Jehovah God doesn't need to be redeemed/repurchased, so no, it's not talking about "God's redeemer" as Trinitarians interpret the "his" there when they try to use this verse in support of the Trinity, and as Joecroft put it, I'd say it's not talking about Jehovah's Repurchaser to stay more true to the terminologies as used in the text, not that that's important here, just trying to be extra clear. I already showed how these lists of titles are used in the bible including Isaiah itself, in the previous chapter for example; and every time it's clear that only 1 individual is spoken of, followed by a list of titles or appropiate nouns for that individual that are often not exclusive nouns to that individual, like King, Redeemer/Repurchaser, Lord, etc., so cannot be used to conflate other individuals with that individual just because the same noun applies to that other individual.

At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)

Change "person" to "individual" in that point if you're stuck on the cop-out 'the Father and Jesus are not the same person, because the Father, the Holy Ghost and the Son are 3 persons in 1 God'. Some Trinitarians, if you press them, will even admit that they're arguing for '3 persons in 1 being', blissfully ignoring that "person" and "being" are synonyms, just like "individual", so they're really saying '3 persons in 1 person', making the contradiction more obvious; which is why they say it the other way: '3 persons in 1 God', or at most will acknowledge '3 persons in 1 being' (I've not found a Trinitarian admitting yet that they're aguing for '3 persons/individuals/beings in 1 person/individual/being'. Or just focus on the remark about equality instead, which is part of the Trinity doctrine (and some forms of Binitarianism).
Source: see first comment to Joecroft on page 5

When there appear to be two people making a combined single statement, it only confirms that these two or three are ONE, but you're not capable of understanding that.

And when there appears to be one individual making a statement, and people still get the impression that there appear to be two people making a combined single statement ignoring all the evidence to the contrary in the process and distracting from that evidence when someone else brings it up with the standard texts that Trinitarians have been indoctrinated with that they supposedly support the Trinity, which have nothing directly to do with who Israel's Redeemer/Repurchaser is, then something significant is going on regarding a demonstration of 2 Timothy 4:3,4 and some of the other bible verses I brought up. And the texts about stubbornness one of which is used by Bob Marley in this song (also in relation to me having responded to you many times already regarding these other bible texts you just brought up, and you not wanting to hear it, not putting up with it as 2 Timothy 4:3,4 says it):

a reply to: whereislogic

Do you really believe Jesus was possessed by Michael the archangel, that Jesus died and was buried, never rose and Michael the Archangel left the body of Jesus went back to heaven?

Do you really believe JW.org is as valid as Gods word.
I see JW. Org as the same as the Vatican, JWs worship the organisation, it has more authority than the bible
Simple answer would be sufficient, that's what I understand what you believe of your group

a reply to: Raggedyman
No, and neither do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that. It's an interesting misinterpretation of their beliefs though, cause it raises the question why Trinitarians take this propaganda stuff and Trinitarian programming seriously, and why it doesn't ring a bell why some people resort to that sort of ridicule by misrepresentation (what's the matter, can't refute their actual beliefs and teachings and reasons given for those with logical argumentation and quoting bible verses without twisting them or taking them out of context or cherry-picking specific bible translations that assist one's argumentation but show evidence of not having been accurately translated or even translated with Trinitarian or anti-Jehovah and antichrist bias. How to ridicule the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses without ever addressing the evidence for those teachings:

a reply to: whereislogic

Well I am not watching a video.
I just asked the question, nothing else
So what makes you so different
What's your belief in Christ, just a man or an angel, what was He?

a reply to: whereislogic

Not so funny that you make that false accusation in response to a comment where I used 2 other translations for Isaiah 44:6 that clearly show that Jehovah is both Israel's King and Redeemer/Repurchaser (along with the other verses I quoted earlier that show the same thing in all translations...

I've already told you this a thousand times. Jehovah (Old Testament) is Jesus the Redeemer (New Testament). Jesus redeemed us by His blood. While I know that deep down you believe that Jesus did indeed redeem us by his blood, you'll never admit that Jehovah is Jesus, even though you'll go as far as to call Jehovah the Redeemer., without acknowledging Jesus' name in all of that.

a reply to: Deetermined

Yes, even Paul understood what you do not...

Philippians 2:5-7

Im afraid not... see that version of that passage stands in direct contradiction with three verses from Johns gospel...

Jesus did not ever consider himself equal to the Father... nice try though

Notice in the verse above, it's only through the SON that the FATHER is revealed and the SON is the only one who is capable of revealing that information to others.

Which means he was Gods son... Nothing more

He said specifically that the Father taught him all he knows... not to mention in other passages all things are "given" to him... and everything he does is because of the Father, not himself

Sorry no trinity...

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: whereislogic

Not so funny that you make that false accusation in response to a comment where I used 2 other translations for Isaiah 44:6 that clearly show that Jehovah is both Israel's King and Redeemer/Repurchaser (along with the other verses I quoted earlier that show the same thing in all translations...

I've already told you this a thousand times. Jehovah (Old Testament) is Jesus the Redeemer (New Testament). Jesus redeemed us by His blood. While I know that deep down you believe that Jesus did indeed redeem us by his blood, you'll never admit that Jehovah is Jesus, even though you'll go as far as to call Jehovah the Redeemer., without acknowledging Jesus' name in all of that.

DEAD WRONG!
1st. It's not Jehovah...
2nd. He Is NOT Jehovah...
3rd. You Don't Know What You're Talking About!
So... Be Silent!

a reply to: Pinocchio

Sorry, but you're the one who is DEAD WRONG!

Here's what we know from scripture...

Old Testament...

Zechariah 13:6

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 14:3-4

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:8-9

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

If you know and understand New Testament scripture (which I'm doubting you do), then you should know that Jesus is the one who has nail wounds in his hands, will stand on the Mt. of Olives when he returns, is referred to as the living waters, and you should know that Jesus will reign as king over all the earth, as stated in both the Old and New Testaments.

Go back and read Zechariah 14:9 again. There's a reason that it ends with "and his name ONE".

There's a reason that the scripture below confused the Jews and now confuses those who lack the Spirit of understanding from the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.