The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Both versions of the parables of the kingdom have exactly the same context. Mark ch4, Matthew ch13.
There is NO difference, except that one version uses "Kingdom of heaven".

Do you distinguish between "the President's wife" and "the First Lady"? They are two different labels, so they must represent two different people, right?

Yes I do distinguish between the two. They may be the same person but they are two different functions. It is the same with the Kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God. They have two different titles with two different functions as well.

1) Presidents wife-is a wife of a man.

2) The First Lady-is a position over many people.

You know what you didn't see in the AKJV of Matthew 13:44 is that the man hid himself, not the treasure.

Mt 13:44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

It is Jesus that hid himself and the treasure is Israel, He sold everything to purchase the filed. Jesus is the man and the field is the world (all previously said by Jesus to be such, there is not context change). The man in this section is Jesus Christ dying to buy back the world from the curse in Gen 3:17-19. Christ is hidden from most today, and that treasure is still on the earth today which Christ purchased with his own blood.

You see no knew revelation to anyone since 1880, because they changed the word of God.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
You know what you didn't see in the AKJV of Matthew 13:44 is that the man hid himself, not the treasure.
Mt 13:44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
It is Jesus that hid himself and the treasure is Israel, He sold everything to purchase the filed. Jesus is the man and the field is the world

No, you have completely misunderstood the grammar of that sentence.
Put mental brackets around the words "when a man hath found", because that makes it easier to see how the sentence has been constructed.
Jesus says that the kingdom is like a treasure "the which he hideth" ("he" being the discoverer).
But "a treasure the which he hideth" is simply seventeenth century English for "a treasure which he hides".
He hides the treasure.
If the man hid himself, he would not be able to go and buy the field. He would have to come out of hiding in order to make the purchase.

In short, you have failed to understand the English meaning of that verse, and your only excuse is that you are reading it in an archaic English which slightly obscures the meaning (if the words are not read carefully enough).

a reply to: DISRAELI

Don't use brackets, try doing the elementary level sentence structure you learned in 6th grade English, the one with a tree branch system to break down the sentence. The Grammar of the English in the KJV shows it it be the Man hideth himself "he hideth", not "and he hid it" as seen in NIV, NKJV and other versions since 1880. They had to change the words and thereby change the structure of the sentence to make you think it says he hid the treasure. That is called, "by the sleight of men", "corrupting the word of God" as seen in:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Ever see what people do when the win the lotto they go right out and declare it. No not really they hid themselves from the public, so they don't tell anyone what they have.

Don't use Sophist reasoning, He hideth, means just that he hid himself. the spiritual meaning is Christ did not reveal who he was ouotright so he could finish the work of the Father, when he comes a second time he will not be hiding, it will be men hiding from him

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

NO NEW REVELATION TO THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE A PRESERVED WORD OF GOD.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

The kingdom- Subject of sentence
Of heaven- Adjectival expression, attached to "Kingdom".
Is like unto- Verb
Treasure- Predicate of sentence.
Hid in a field- Adjectival expression, attached to "Treasure".

The which- Relative pronoun, attached to "Treasure" and beginning subordinate sentence.

When a man hath found- Adverbial clause within subordinate sentence.
[This breaks down into;
When- Temporal conjunction
A man- Subject of adverbial clause
Hath found- Verb of adverbial clause.
The which- Object (by anticipation) of the transitive verb "found".]

He- Subject of the subordinate sentence beginning with "The which".
Hideth- Verb of subordinate sentence.
The which- Object (by anticipation) of the TRANSITIVE verb "hideth".

And- Conjunction beginning fresh sentence (which is not under dispute).

Your mistake, you see, is that you are trying to understand "hideth" as an intransitive verb, which it isn't in this case, and completely ignoring the grammatical function of "the which".

I didn't go an an American school, so I'm not able to put that analysis into the right shape for American schools.
However, if your contempt for people who know what they're talking about doesn't extend to English teachers, you may care to take it to your nearest American English teacher who will be able to re-shape it into a form which will suit your taste and confirm that "hideth" is a transitive verb in this sentence.


This has nothing to do with "different translations". This is the correct grammatical reading of the sentence as it stands in the translation which you prefer.

Much Ado About Nothing...

No new revelation to those who mess with God's words.

Eventually if a man or woman messes with God's words long enough He will mess with their mind.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Once again I say; take the grammatical analysis I offered and show it to an English teacher. Get their verdict.
In this case, you are the one who is is mangling God's Word by your deliberate refusal to take in the meaning of the English language.
Yes, I understand that you are "kicking against the pricks", but do try to disengage your armour and LISTEN to somebody for a change

Ahem, as I posted, Scripture actually tells us what the two kingdoms are......

Yes the Kingdom of God is in the Old Testament

Kingdom of God has the Holy Spirit and is in you

Kingdom of Heaven is the Millenium....it's written in there, promise

K of Heaven is what was postponed in the postponement fact theory and for the K of God it's spiritual in nature Romans.......14: 17

a reply to: GBP/JPY
I'm going to have to refer you to the reply I gave you previously;

Run through the list in the OP.
Take them side by side. (Look especially at the parables of the kingdom)
They are the same thing.

That is actually looking at the scripture, instead of what over-ingenious pastors are telling you about the scripture.

a reply to: DISRAELI

There seems to be a little mystique about the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven, so let’s examine what is known about both of them.

Mark 1:14-18
(14) Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
(15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(16) Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
(17) And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
(18)And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

What does this mean to me? It means to me that the people of Israel were under the influence of a complete atheist regime of Sadducee and Roman mindset. The temple of Jerusalem was absolutely an abomination of the God of Abraham and then comes Jesus with the message that you had best repent of this abomination and seek the teachings of the gospels of their fathers. Those gospels were and still are the Torah and prophets.

Why did Jesus not say the kingdom of heaven? Because the kingdom of heaven had not as yet been given to mankind. All spirits of the dead were entombed in a conscious state in Sheol. At this time when Jesus declared the kingdom of God, there was not any man allowed into the realm of the celestial heavens so the kingdom of heaven was not given at this time.

Isaiah tells the very same thing.
Isa 65:17-20
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
(19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred

John verifies this in Revelation 21:10 - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God--

We understand that both Isaiah and John are describing the New Jerusalem where Gan Eden is located in the third heaven.
In understanding this as the authors intended it to be understood, we can realize that the heavenly kingdom is a place in the celestial third heaven and not a kingdom in this terrestrial realm.

Therein lays the difference between the [kingdom of God] which embraces the belief and obedience to the God of Jesus as terrestrial people and the [kingdom of heaven] which is a place of eternal life to a resurrected celestial entity. the terrestrial kingdom of man/woman and the celestial kingdom of man/woman are both in God but as the world will one day cease to exist so will the terrestrial kingdom of God be unnecessary. All will eventually be the kingdom of the celestial third heaven which is the true kingdom of heaven.

So to be somewhat clear I understand the kingdom of God to be the terrestrial kingdom [body] of Christ Jesus upon this earth while the heavenly kingdom is that in which each individual has been judged and those that are found worthy are resurrected into the kingdom of heaven [Gan Eden]. I also acknowledge that both kingdoms are in the Father as one terrestrial and the other celestial.

originally posted by: Seede
Why did Jesus not say the kingdom of heaven?

But he does say "kingdom of heaven" in Matthew's gospel. In fact he frequently says "kingdom of heaven" in exactly the same places that he says "kingdom of God" in the other gospels.
This is most obvious in the "parables of the kingdom".
"Heaven" is a Judaic circumlocution for "God".
That'e why I think the difference between the two expressions is artificial. In both cases, the point is that God is in charge.
I'm becoming convinced that the creation of unnecessary distinctions is one of the chief symptoms of modern American legalism.
People seem determined to turn the gospel into something more more elaborate and complicated than the simple message left by the apostles.

Acts is the new move.....into postponement

So we want to divide there on the model of Scripture, right after strike three on the Kingdom of Heaven coming if the leaders of the sandamhedron woulda said yes to Jesus...they had Daniel to give them the date but no

God said PAUL ....batter up....big knock baby, big knock, Paul

Strike three was Stephan

a reply to: GBP/JPY
The first answer I gave you still applies.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm becoming convinced that the creation of unnecessary distinctions is one of the chief symptoms of modern American legalism. People seem determined to turn the gospel into something more more elaborate and complicated than the simple message left by the apostles.

Please do not misunderstand me in what I assume DISRAELI. I agree one hundred percent that God is in charge and that I am misunderstood many times by many people.

Let me try to explain my understanding a little more. There is a reason that Jesus started His ministry in a warning to these Hellenist Jews who were steeped in utter destruction. Not for those that were already saved from destruction but for almost the entire nation of brain washed Sadducee heathens. This was a matter of actual afterlife to these lost people who were led into destruction by Sadducee's who taught the entire nation that there was no afterlife of a kingdom of God. It is similar to what is happening in this country [USA] right now.

The word heaven was not available to Jews in Judaic belief. No one imagined that anyone could be in the celestial realm and John verifies this when he said ---[John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.] -- At this time of this writing no man had ever ascended into the celestial realm.

In that I understand where you are coming from and if the scriptures did not have the words kingdom of heaven and only used the kingdom of God in the entire translations of NT, I would have no objections at all. My understanding that I have now would not be affected at all. I would still understand afterlife in the very same manner. I cannot disagree simply because I do not have the autographs of the NT. Now if the translators did translate correctly then it is profitable for anyone to question why God and Heaven can or cannot be the exact same interpretation and if they are the same then why the differences in word play by the same authors? I blame the translators for the confusion when it could have been bracketed for clarification.

Jesus was but about three years before His death and according to Luke's account of Lazarus, the spirits of dead souls were still imprisoned in Sheol. That is the reason that Jesus taught that the His kingdom of heaven was near at hand. His kingdom of heaven was given to Him by God but only those of the kingdom of God could become citizens of His kingdom of heaven.

The confusion comes into play in substance change. That is by my understanding. The kingdom of God contains the kingdom of heaven in this terrestrial understanding because all of existence is of God, but the location of the celestial kingdom is a place of celestial reality and is not the same as this terrestrial reality.

I would like to think that I am now in the kingdom of God. But I understand that I am not in the kingdom of heaven as yet. As I die and my spirit judged I hope to be worthy enough to become a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. Until I die and am judged I cannot say that I am in the kingdom of heaven. I do not have my new celestial body or garment or name as yet. I am not resurrected as yet but I am in the kingdom of God now. Jesus warned the unbelievers that they must be in the kingdom of God as living people before they can enter the kingdom of heaven in their afterlife.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Well, I gave you a hint so you might do a little study instead of giving constant quick replies. I listed 3 points on one of my earlier posts and in the second point I said, the KJV as a supernatural cross-reference system built into the text that is not denominational.

But did you look at any of those points? After 24 hours I doubt you even tried, so here I will show you and what this simple phrase reveals, this is how God works to teach ALL CHRISTIANS TO STUDY, we use the direct rightly dividing approach and the comparing spiritual things with spiritual as the Holy Ghost teaches us. The second is how God the Holy Ghost speaks to a saved person in Christ 1Cor 2:13, we will compare this phrase with other uses of that phrase. And it is up to us to accept what the Holy Ghost, who inspired the KJV, and compares one part with another part. This comparison gives support to my point that the the man in Matthew 13:44 that hid himself is Jesus, who is the fulness of the godhead bodily. Consider the revelation that the Holy Ghost shows us by comparing the phrase "he hideth". The Italicized text are the words the KJV translators added to make the text understandable-you will never find any Bible scholar before or since that did this so the reader would know those words were added.

1Sam 23:23 See therefore, and take knowledge of all the lurking places where he hideth himself, and come ye again to me with the certainty, and I will go with you: and it shall come to pass, if he be in the land, that I will search him out throughout all the thousands of Judah.
Job 23:9 On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him:
Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:
Psalm 10:11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
Matt 13:44 ¶ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

You see the first use in 1Samuel is a man, the two in Job is God, and the one in Psalms is God again. So If the man who found the treasure in a field (the World) is Jesus, he hid himself from the religious scholars of his day and went on to do the will of God to purchase the world from sin with his own blood, there is a final conclusion that this is accurate as found in the English "he hideth". The Treasure is Israel, who is in the world (the Field) the man is Jesus who gave his life to purchase the field (the world). Jesus nor the Father ever hide Israel, they are were they have been and the Bible never claimed they never existed, because Israel is not a nation but its people. The Land that God promised them as a Kingdom where God's anointed, Israel's Messiah is God's land, and that land was never hidden. What was hidden was who Jesus was and the purpose of his first coming.

What reason would any one want to change it to hide the meaning from Christians?

They wanted it hidden so they could take the kingdom for themselves and form it for themselves on earth without Christ. Everything the RC has done is to make themselves the priests, ruling from a throne, with a man on the throne (the wrong man), the Reformation Churches all keep the same doctrines when it comes to ruling in place of Christ.

Genuine Bible Believing Churches, are few and far in between, and the revelation that the Man is Jesus, the treasure is Israel, and the field is the world is only revealed to them, this is why you fight the simple teaching of the Holy Ghost comparing spiritual things to spiritual and why it goes right on over your head.

originally posted by: Seede
The word heaven was not available to Jews in Judaic belief. No one imagined that anyone could be in the celestial realm

I only meant that "heaven" was sometimes used as a respectful synonym for God. God was being put slightly at a distance in other ways, e.g. in the belief that the laws of Moses were "delivered by angels".

I blame the translators for the confusion when it could have been bracketed for clarification.

Not really their fault. The difference between Matthew's usage and the usage of the other three is in the texts found in the manuscripts. I suggested in the second post that Matthew got "kingdom of heaven" from one of the sources of information that he was using.

Jesus warned the unbelievers that they must be in the kingdom of God as living people before they can enter the kingdom of heaven in their afterlife.

I'm not convinced that Jesus says anything about the kingdom of heaven that he doesn't say about the kingdom of God.
E.g. "The least in the kingdom of God is greater than John" (Luke ch6 v28) and "The least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John" (Matthew ch11 v11). That's why I've been treating them as two alternative names for the same thing.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
You can do some work yourself.
Why don't you follow up my suggestion of consulting an English teacher on the grammatical structure of Matthew ch13 v44?
The charge that your teachings are partly based on failure to understand the English language is not going to go away until that has been sorted out.
I mean it. That is my standard reply until you bite that bullet.
"It is hard for you to kick against the pricks".

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Excellent learning there......cool thread Disraeli

That's why we're rapture bound...Israel is the first born male child of God

Born for this final 7 year run to include Israel.....last Sept. 23.......twas a male child, not a bride

They got a start with a new U S Embassy, now comes the Trump blowin feast day, no rehearsal day.....might not be a rehearsal.....this time.....

Some trumpets gonna be heard on Sept 11 of all days

a reply to: DISRAELI

Already have and I listed it for you because you wont even concider it or at least study the way God's word says to and come to the same conclusion. You are a scholar or a teacher (of which many are heaped up today) and your interest is not for the souls of men, but for the recognition of men. This is why in every one of your lessons, of any book you do studies on you never give them the truth about Christ finished work to save them. This is how I know you, by the fruit of your work, which is actually just rehashed work of other men before you, whom also never gave the message of Christ finished work for salvation of man in any of their studies that they rehashed from men before them.

There is not one original thought from you in any of your studies, and it also tells us why you cannot see the simple Holy Ghost comparing spiritual things with spiritual, in that the it was God the son hiding himself (as God has done before) and not the Treasure Israel. No scripture will ever support the treasure as Israel because it was never hidden. and the Treasure can't be mankind, because no scriptural support for mankind being hidden before either. Just as no scripture will ever support that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same thing. You see the different words used in Matt and Mark but you don't study for yourself, you read other people studies and make your conclusions based on their words and not from the word of God

If you just studied the way God's word says so and did your own work instead of rehashing someone else's work, you just might come up with something original from the word of God.