Venezuela's economy - their oil reserves and what can be done to help

From what the news has been showing, Venezuela is experiencing one of the worst economic collapses seen since Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and many have said that it has been coming for over 20 years, especially those who understand how Venezuela's economy functions and their lack of maintenance and upkeep of their oil infrastructure over the last 40-70 years.

For those who don't know, Venezuela was one of the most prosperous (if no the most) countries in South America for some time in the 20th century. Many called it a Socialist paradise and this was because there was a lot of money coming in from selling oil. Venezuela has MASSIVE oil reserves. They don't have the light sweet crude like that in the middle east, it is a much heavier, thicker crude which isn't as good for making gasoline, but they have A LOT of what they do have. Extracting this type of crude, from what I have read/heard, is more expensive and labor/technologically intensive, requiring more infrastructure and all of this requires upkeep to keep everything in working order. Well it seems that those in charge decided that the $$ was going to keep rolling in and they needn't be bothered with maintenance or upgrades in this process and now they have massive oil leaks in their lakes (drilling rigs where they extract) and some say more than 50% of the oil is lost due to leaks.

Another issue is that Venezuela doesn't have a lot of refineries, I'm not sure they have any working refineries. They were relying on Aruba's refinery for some time for gasoline (it's only about 20km off the coast, you can see Venezuela from the beach in Aruba) and also from refineries in Mexico and Texas for their refined products. They trade crude and get back refined materials for use - or so that is what used to happen from what I gather. I know the refinery in Aruba, which was quite large for a small island, really scaled back production a few years ago and was only open a couple days a week from working 24/7/365. IDK the cause, but it really hurt the local economy on the island as it was one of the best employers.

I know that Brazil is largely self sufficient when it comes to liquid fuels between their oil production and ethanol production but the northern part of South America with Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Suriname, Guyana, Fr Guyana, etc could all benefit from a new, large refinery. Gasoline in Columbia, Ecuador and Peru is relatively expensive in comparison to their per capita income and I think a large portion of this is due to the final product being imported instead of refined "locally" (on the continent).

It would seem that there is a MAJOR opportunity for an oil company or even a coalition of northern SA countries to join together and build a refinery in exchange for low cost crude. The lack of jobs in Venezuela (and surrounding countries) is largely cause by high fuel costs/transprotation costs, so labor should be very cheap ATM. This would be the perfect time for a massive infrastructure project to revitalize Venezuela's oil infrastructure and help save their economy at the same time. In addition to helping the economy, the could help the entire Western hemisphere cut their dependence on Mid Eastern oil, which would be worth the effort alone (except for the fact that we are bound to House of Saud and need to keep buying from them no matter what - to keep them in power - or it would be VERY bad for the ME & the world!). But the oil from the ME could go to closer allies which need oil, I would think, it doesn't matter who buys & where it goes, as long as someone is buying from Saud.

The only issue I can see with helping Venezuela with their infrastructure is if they have civil war or government collapse, which it seems close to this now. If a US company invests, then this would actually be good reason to send in troops, to protect US investments and help secure the oil - sound familiar? I kind of have a feeling that this might be the direction it is heading in the long run, and the sooner the better IMO, as the people there are suffering either way. At least they would be able to start building again ASAP, instead of wallowing for 5-15 years under a dictator. I don't think we would have the same issues there as we do in the ME b/c the religion isn't the same and in the ME, much of what happened is due to Sunni/Shia conflict and them being Muslims in general (attitude towards infidels). I think in Venezuela there would only be push back from the acting governement and once that was taken care of we would be treated the way we thought we would be treated in Iraq - as liberators and as friends. I may be wrong and I'd like to hear others viewpoints. Do you think there would be insurgencies/guerilla warfare after an invasion for years like in Iraq? Do you think it would be a large % of the population like Iraq - or would it just be a handful of gov loyalists? I see Venezuela as a totally different beast than what Iraq/Syria was/is.

I think a strong Democratic Venezuela could be a very good ally in the future, possibly one of the best we could have if things are done correctly there. When I see interviews with their citizens, they seem to really understand democracy and understand the evils of dictators and socialism, having lived through it for the last 25-35 years.

Dude, the people have to want to work for the change from within, it doesn't work when outside forces try to make them do it. We've got a trail of proof all over Africa & the ME for that.

I wish we could help, but as long as the corruption is ruling the roost nothing will change... once the people get rid o fhte corruption then help can occur.

But sadly when that happens I am sure the IMF will step in with a big fat loan that will screw them again a few years down the road.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Dude, the people have to want to work for the change from within, it doesn't work when outside forces try to make them do it. We've got a trail of proof all over Africa & the ME for that.

Agreed but I think the people of Venezuela are a little different than those in the ME. There were many people who worked there before, it wasn't a massive welfare state where people only got gov $$ and lived off of that. They had jobs but they may have been set gov wages. Now they don't work b/c there are no goods to sell, no raw materials to manufacture. It isn't because they are lazy, it is an economic issue that is keeping them from working. It isn't that they are lazy, it is economic.

I can "garuntee" that if they had the option to work, and be able to buy things with wages, people would work again. The problem is the Gov is manipulating everything in the economy, much like the USSR, but in a much worse ("stupid") manner.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof

originally posted by: Nyiah
Dude, the people have to want to work for the change from within, it doesn't work when outside forces try to make them do it. We've got a trail of proof all over Africa & the ME for that.

Agreed but I think the people of Venezuela are a little different than those in the ME. There were many people who worked there before, it wasn't a massive welfare state where people only got gov $$ and lived off of that. They had jobs but they may have been set gov wages. Now they don't work b/c there are no goods to sell, no raw materials to manufacture. It isn't because they are lazy, it is an economic issue that is keeping them from working. It isn't that they are lazy, it is economic.

I can "garuntee" that if they had the option to work, and be able to buy things with wages, people would work again. The problem is the Gov is manipulating everything in the economy, much like the USSR, but in a much worse ("stupid") manner.

So another Socialist experiment gone wrong and it's time to bail them out?

Let their people fix it.

Root the Progressives out and start anew, as opposed to propping up an ideology that just doesn't work.

Hell, we're trying to do it in America right now.

Let Venezuela be a lesson for our younger voters here.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
I wish we could help, but as long as the corruption is ruling the roost nothing will change... once the people get rid o fhte corruption then help can occur.

But sadly when that happens I am sure the IMF will step in with a big fat loan that will screw them again a few years down the road.

I'm not sure the IMF will get their slice of Venezuela. The people of SA have come around on understanding the way the IMF and world bank opperate, especially since the collapse of Argentina. In addition to the IMF loans to Ecuador & Bolivia & Bechtel's involvement in "stealing" the water in those countries (with funding paid for by IMF loans), people have fought back in those countries and they have learned the ways of the IMF and how they extract the raw materials of countries with their "loans".

This is why I said that they need to form some kind of "coalition" with other SA coutnries where all will benefit from helping Venezuela fix their infrastructure. I would think Panamanian banks could even make loans, secured by future oil extraction, for helping fund the issue.

We aren't talking 100's of billions of $$ to fix this. Billion's go a long way in these economies at this time as far a labor goes. The main cost would be the technology and materials for the infrastructure and Brazil has manufactures much of what is needed and has the expertise to build refineries IF they don't want "Anglo/American" companies doing the work.

IDK what the relationship is between Brazil and Venezuela, but I would think that they would both benefit by having strong, prosperous neighbors who are not antagonistic to each other (which I don't think they are). Even Argentina and Paraguay have a relatively robust engineering industry which could help with this.

I always find the way SA works to be odd. The countries seem to function very different than the rest of the world in many ways, often very similar to Africa when it comes to how neighboring countries work with each other. IDK if this is just ignorance to how things are actually done (due to lack of media converge, or what) or just perception.

I'm not saying "bail them out" at all. I'm not saying prop up a socialist governemtn, IN ANY WAY! I support regime change and maybe even a new constitution if that is what the people there want.

What I am saying is that the US would greatly benefit from a strong democratic (maybe mix of capitalistic & socialist, IDK..) Venezuela that has a booming oil infrastructure. I could give great security to the US when it comes to oil and if it had to could be the sole provider of oil should that be needed (say WW3 or major ME war).

I support the people of Venezuela taking power back and throwing out the autocrates in power. I'm not sure this is going to happen without some external support (military or at least weapons, supplies, etc). I think sending supplies to a "peoples army" (or those that oppose the current gov), much like how we are doing in Syria, might be the best way to handle this. Allow the people to fight, but they can't do with with rocks and sling shots. Give them a fighting chance and see what they can do. It really can't be worse than it is now in that country.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Well, I suppose for a start it would be good if the US stopped doing this sh!t and let the people themselves sort out their own problems.

I mean;

The head of the CIA has suggested the agency is working to change the elected government of Venezuela and is collaborating with two countries in the region to do so.

FFS.

But then again it seems that;

Foreign countries working against the US = Bad.
US working against foreign countries = Yeah, that seems to be ok.

a reply to: Lumenari

Still using the word Socialism incorrectly? The people had no ownership or say in production which is not Socialism.

What really happened.

Another Fascist Dictatorship selling their brand of Facism as Socialism failed because the leadership are morons.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Lumenari

Still using the word Socialism incorrectly? The people had no ownership or say in production which is not Socialism.

What really happened.

Another Fascist Dictatorship selling their brand of Facism as Socialism failed because the leadership are morons.

I agree. I think if we looked back at Venezuela in the 40's to 70's we would see a closer resemblance to Socialism

a reply to: DigginFoTroof
You can have all the willing labor in the world, but who will create the jobs?? Seems like a surplus of low skilled talent and a shortage of the bold, innovative and ambitious minds that create businesses and jobs. Their public schooling needs fixing to prioritize higher education. They may have great universities, but if the local population is not producing the type of minds to fill them, out of state and foreign exchange students fill the gap.

I believe education is typically one of several primary underlying factors in cases like Venezuela.

The only way to help Venezuela's economy is to start again.

The country needs the entire ruling elite removed. The politicians, the heads of police and army and other branches of government. All are complicit in the failure of the Venezuelan state, and the broken economy. All parts of the Venezuelan government is corrupt, mutually supporting and - unlike the wider population - not starving.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Dude, the people have to want to work for the change from within, it doesn't work when outside forces try to make them do it. We've got a trail of proof all over Africa & the ME for that.

Yup well said, another good example is Haiti. I think we should stay the hell out just like we should get the hell out of Haiti too. Stay out of these countries unless there is a big enough cry from the people for our help against their oppressive government. Other than that they need to work it out themselves.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Your OP seems to be candy coating facts and paintimg over the crux (reality) of what has lead to Venezuela's economic and infrastructural decline over the past 20 years: Contentious relationships with the U.S often lead to economic sanctions imposed on said nation. The people end up suffering to a point of seeking rescue.

Why has America been STIFLING Venezuela for the past two decades in the first place...?

Why is there a contentious relationship to begin with...?

...especially those who understand how Venezuela's economy functions and their lack of maintenance and upkeep of their oil infrastructure over the last 40-70 years.

Please elaborate on how their economy functions and how they lacked maintaining infrastructure. Thank you.

Well it seems that those in charge decided that the $$ was going to keep rolling in and they needn't be bothered with maintenance or upgrades in this process and now they have massive oil leaks in their lakes (drilling rigs where they extract) and some say more than 50% of the oil is lost due to leaks.

Subjective.

The only issue I can see with helping Venezuela with their infrastructure is if they have civil war or government collapse, which it seems close to this now.

Ah....the good old effects of sanctions imposed by the US on lesser nations not willing to be exploited by the west *seem* to be working. Tactics tested and proven to work for the good ol' USA since the end of WWII

If a US company invests, then this would actually be good reason to send in troops, to protect US investments and help secure the oil - sound familiar?

Like an old tune (whistling "Dixie").

I kind of have a feeling that this might be the direction it is heading in the long run, and the sooner the better IMO,

FFS...!!! lol

...as the people there are suffering either way.

Again: Ah....the good old effects of sanctions imposed by the US on lesser nations not willing to be exploited by the west *seem* to be working. Tactics tested and proven to work for the good ol' United Foods/Banana Republic of the USA since the end of WWII.

At least they would be able to start building again ASAP, instead of wallowing for 5-15 years under a dictator.

I get the strong impression your views are strictly formed based on a mainstream news (propaganda)? Serious question.

I don't think we would have the same issues there as we do in the ME b/c the religion isn't the same and in the ME, much of what happened is due to Sunni/Shia conflict and them being Muslims in general (attitude towards infidels).

lol...@the nonsense of religion being the difference. C'mon...


What are your thoughts on Identity Federalism: an old and still used tactic of the US Empire?

I think in Venezuela there would only be push back from the acting governement and once that was taken care of we would be treated the way we thought we would be treated in Iraq - as liberators and as friends.

I have been to Venezuela a few times. Have you?

What is going on there (suffering due to destroyed currency of life for its people) is due to US meddling...not the Venezuelan government's doing.

I was going to post a thread a year ago about this very topic. I'll come back later and drop some of the links and sources I had so you can do your own research and get a better understanding of reality and how WICKED the USA is operating towards Venezuela.

I see Venezuela as a totally different beast than what Iraq/Syria was/is.

It is the same s#: stealing of VAST resources by America....yet again.

I think a strong Democratic Venezuela could be a very good ally in the future, possibly one of the best we could have if things are done correctly there.

I agree. And this is why America should stop F#king the people of Venezuela and let them be democratic instead of trying to install a puppet.

I leave you with this very tiny crumb that leads to something much bigger...

twitter.com...

S+F

a reply to: Involutionist

A lot to reply to, I'll do my best.

I'll agree that the sanctions probably had a large effect on the economy, how much is hard to tell from a citizen's point of view in the US. I guess it goes back to the Chavez/Bush issues, IDK if they had sanctions before this.? From what I remember we still accepted oil from Venezuela even throughout the sanctions, IDK if it was limited in the amount they could trade or not. Are you saying that these sanctions are the cause of the lack of maintenance to the infrastructure either by limiting materials (pipe/etc) or by restricting trade/sale of oil to fund such projects?

If this is the case, then yes, I do have a skewed view of what has happened down there. I have tried to find external sources for south american news but there are few and far between that are published in English. I finally found how to translate papers/sites so that will help going forward to be able to read articles from foreign countries. Do you know if there are any sites which list news sources based on country of origin? I would think that could be very useful in keeping current with various nations issues instead of relying on US MSM.

As far as what I said about it being different than the ME, well that was entirely based upon the issue of the US backing Shia factions in Sunni territory, where those "tribes" are at war with each other or their allies in addition to some groups completely opposing any "infidel" being in the ME let alone Saudi Arabia - which causes those people to attack the coalition for that reason alone. I don't see Venezuela being described or defined as a "Holy land" nor do I see two religious groups which are out to annihilate the other through military means, please inform me if I am ignorant of these groups.

Can you explain the infrastructure problem (petroleum related) within Venezuela? I've seen many news stories/shows on the country and they all seem to mention this as well as articles and in many books. Is this media hype/propaganda or not? From what I have seen in the reports much of the oil is found in Lake Maracaibo and they point to this area as being under dis-repair and have shown the effects on the shores - some have even said that it may be effecting the lightening on the lake, again IDK if that is propaganda/sensationalism or not. Do you have personal insight into this or knowledge from others that do?

As far as the calling the ruler a dictator, that is in response to the vast number of articles and shows that have shown the opposition to the elections, which many say have been manipulated on top of intimidation from the current government in power. There have been reports of people on the Maduro diet, which they use in jest and it seems Maduro is not aware of his people suffering, or at least it is portrayed as such. I could see him not being aware of the extent, but I'm sure he has to know they are. The thing is that I've watched news shows (15-45 min shows) on Venezuela from the most liberal to conservative outlets and they seem to be in agreement on most of these matters which is unusual for them to agree on much of anything.

What do you think would be the best way to help Venezuela. Do you think the current government has the best intentions of the people at heart or are they largely self serving? I think it is obvious that the latter is what the media (in the US) tries to portray which alone give reason to question it. How much the sanctions have effected the current situation and have been the cause to impose more strict forms of governance is very difficult to know from an outsider but is very important for us to know.

Do you know all the current sanctions on Venezuela and the reason for them? I looked at the various US gov web sites and it isn't easy to identify all of them, many seem to be financial (banking related) which seems like a sure way to slowly strangle a country.. If this is the case, then looking at the situation from this perspective I can see it much differently and was unaware of the extent of the sanctions and can see why they may have had extensive/compounded effects leading to the current situation and one would have to ask how they would have managed the country differently in the same circumstances and if they would not also look like a dictator.

Thank you for responding, I'm sure it wasn't fun to read my OP as most of what I wrote was from a skewed perspective. It seems the MSM does a very good job of keeping the US citizens from knowing what is really going on and the real reasons for what is happening, which is very sad in a Democratic Republic.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

If I had to take a guess, I suspect TPTB do not want to see Venezuela producing or selling a lot of oil.

TPTB - including Saudi Arabia, The West, and OPEC countries.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

I say lets go in there, bomb em, kill 10% of their population, take all of there oil just to line the pockets of a few men, print them new money, set up a corrupt government, tell everyone their money will be worth something in the future, sell a bunch of the toilet paper money and 10+ years, nothing, still corruption and broke setting on TONS of oil and gold...
Wait... didnt that already happen? weird

a reply to: xBWOMPx

Maybe what happened was they went in there and set up a corrupt gov't, but instructed to quell oil production.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof

I think a strong Democratic Venezuela could be a very good ally in the future

Why is it that every time I hear the word democratic anything it turns out to be the most corrupt of all???
Hmm, weird...

a reply to: nOraKat

True, I think I was just reflecting on Iraq in my statement.... But I think your on to something!