Evidence for and against the Bible

Croat56

Do you have ANYTHING to back up your statements?

The entire point of the thread is to offer up your evidence proving or disproving the Bible

[edit on 19-2-2005 by Amuk]

Never done this before. Very interesting discussion. A lot of you have well thought out ideas. First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I AM a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention. I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost it's meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.

Point 1

Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Point 1

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and some one asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story. Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2

Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisies, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him. Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3

Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw...WOW!


I have much more reasons why I choose now to believe, that I'll share later. hope this creates some more interesting discussions. Thanks for the opportunity guys!

Old Thinker
Phillipians 1:3

[edit on 19-2-2005 by OldThinker]

I truly love watching Americans debate about Biblical statements or which religion is the true religion. I'd like to tell you but you don't listen!
Firstly I would ask you ALL the same question you should be asking your various priests, ministers, pastors, etc, etc, of no matter which religion.
WHICH COPYRIGHT ARE YOU ALL USING? God doesn't have a copyright I hear you all say. Don't believe me huh? Open your bibles at the front, YES the front!!! Which year was your bible copywritten?
A copyright means an opinion or an assumption!
So, Let's all start again. For the usual fanatics, (ie) the Fundamentalists, you have no time to waste reading these kind of websites anyway, aren't you supposed to be getting ready for the Big Event.
There is only ONE True statement in the Bible, and that's where Jesus (yes, He did exist) says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
HE was Soooooo right!
Give me any bible, in any language, in any religion and I will disqualify it in an instant...............Since when was GOD a verb! Show me GOD as a Noun in any religious book on this planet, and I'll show you a book that's in the Truth!
You bloody fools, all of you! Stop taking up so much space on the internet with such waste-of-time crap, and get a life...then do something with it

Of course he said that.....I say the same thing...we are all gods just as Jesus said we were....

Originally posted by OldThinker
Never done this before. Very interesting discussion. A lot of you have well thought out ideas. First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I AM a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention. I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost it's meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.

Point 1

Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Point 1

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and some one asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story. Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2

Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisies, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him. Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3

Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw...WOW!


I have much more reasons why I choose now to believe, that I'll share later. hope this creates some more interesting discussions. Thanks for the opportunity guys!

Old Thinker
Phillipians 1:3

[edit on 19-2-2005 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by OldThinker

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree?

the later arthurs built upon the earlier and knew about the earlier works, why should they be different? Not to mention a caste of priests that have grouped the writings togather discarding any that didnt fit.. What amazes me is how often the DISAGREE.

Point 2

Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God.

How is this Undisputable? We have NO writings from Jesus himself everything printed was at BEST second hand.

Originally posted by blueymorgan
So, Let's all start again. For the usual fanatics, (ie) the Fundamentalists, you have no time to waste reading these kind of websites anyway, aren't you supposed to be getting ready for the Big Event.
You bloody fools, all of you! Stop taking up so much space on the internet with such waste-of-time crap, and get a life...then do something with it

If you have nothing to say other than to degrade others beliefs than don't post. This thread WILL NOT degrade to this kind of talk.

You have offered NO evidence that the Bible or wrong only evidence of your intolerance of other peoples beliefs

Sorry just trying to get a handle on how this works...

Amuk, Please take some time and do some research on the various authors of the books in the Bible. There was no direct link for many of them. Many of the New Testament guys were just ordinary folks with ordinary jobs who were not particularly religious, didn't go to synogue regularly. There was no committee of Bible-Developers though time. These folks called it as they saw it in 'their' time...

The books were not formed in to the Bible, as we have it, until many years after they were dead. But the theme of mankind needing a redeemer (sorry for the religious word) Christ coming to die and then the implications of his life and death for the new testament writers and then to us...begs futher attention to it (in my opinion)

Originally posted by Amuk
Croat56

Do you have ANYTHING to back up your statements?

The entire point of the thread is to offer up your evidence proving or disproving the Bible

[edit on 19-2-2005 by Amuk]

Do any of us really have anything to discredit or credit the bible? No none of us were there when it was written. For that matter none of us were around when hisory was written. How do we know anything in history books actually happened. Its all about faith my friend. Weather you believe in the bible, history or theoretic science.

Blueymorgan,

I agree with you that some in Christianity (fundamentalists, as you refered) are quite UNCHRISTIAN. Pushy, close-minded at times and holier -than-thou....

Please don't let (what I believe to be) a minority get in the way of the thousands of good examples we have in our history. such as major universities founded - Harvard, etc and the hundreds of hospitals that care for the needy and the missions that feed and cloth all over the world -Samaritans Purse, world Vision, etc.

By the way, what do you think of my three points? I'd be interested in your take...

Oh Amuk I just thought of something.

How about the devil tempting Adam and Eve in the form of a snake? B4 he did this snakes had legs. When God saw this he punished snakes by taking away they're legs. Havent there been fossils found of snakes with legs on them? That seems like to big of a coincidence for me.

I know that AMUK said that you shouldn't use the arguement that "The Bible is true because it said so", but I was wondering, does the Bible actually SAY that it is true? I know that there are certain passages that say the WORD of God is true, but are they talking about the Bible? WORD could be taken to mean the MESSAGE of God.
Infact, I couldn't find the word "Bible" anywhere IN the Bible. What was it called back then? None of the books (in the New Testament at least) say something along the lines of "I recieved the message of God, and thus wrote it down here". Luke even goes to say (at the beginning) that he is writing because others have also written accounts of what happened, and he says he INVESTIGATED what happened (he did not recieve the information through God). He says he is doing this for a certain Theophilus (who is this guy?) and not as a referrence for the rest of Humanity.
Also, do any of the books cross referrence (I mean cross referrencing between NT and NT books, not NT and OT)? Does Luke, for example say somewhere that "And the Gospel of Mark is true for he recieved it from the Lord God"?

Sodom and Gamora - the sight of where this place was according to ancient scrptures, was found and after digging Ash and Bones were found.

Earth may indeed be 6000 years old?, radio carbon dating is becoming more and accuracy suspect - in the millions and millions of years. Was that not the main index used for judgement of Age.

Proof?, that's alot to ask when discussing the accurate history of earth. Genesis is a story twice told, discussed for years and someone wrote some facinating stuff - Proof?, how do we profide proof yah or nay except maybe finding the Ark of the Covenent or Noah's Ark - but how would it be dated?
Dallas

Amuk, i am not going to cite any webistes becsue most of the evidance has been covered in BOOKs written about the subject. or Historical documents of authors. I cited some of the books, even gave page numbers. The 'internets' may be a great source of information, but they do not contain all the information in the libary of alexandria or the libary of congress

I will bring the early man that the bible does not talks about.

Can anybody explain why?

If earth was finished in seven days with men and women and animals, how come is prof that earlier man was already roaming the earth before Adam and Eve?

Or what happened with the dinosaurs, the bible does not mention them either and we know for a fact that they were on earth prior to early man.

So the seven day myth of creation is just that a myth.

marg, it is explained by God creating a mature universe with all these skeletons and bones allready in the earth to begin with before he even created Adam. In a sense God wants us to belvie on faith, not evidance.

But regardless, that isn't realy a point of contention to refute the bible. since the biblical events cannot be tracked by archolegical means until Abraham or around the same time. In fact there is strong evidance the land of Ur where Abraham is from is Ur of the caldese (which is about NW Iraq i think, or further west). Many of the anceint cities in this area have names of Abrahams nearest relitives

Originally posted by AmukSomewhereinBetween

I disagree about the monotheism part for the simple reason that the earlier books of the Bible often mention other "Gods" so even they did not claim to worship only one. Why would they need a commandment against it then?

Ypu fail to make the connection. Outside of the "we" references when God speaks, Genesis purports to tell us that one God is responsible for everything, and polytheism is not mentioned witin this context for approximately 1500 years. Since we are to believe that the sons of Noah believing in one God populated the area, and the story picks up from Shem's line covering some unknown area from Mesha to Sephar, where we know Assyria is one of those areas, then we should be expecting to have found proof of a One God or Jewish setllement in Assyria, that is older than polytheism, but we have not. Instead what we find is a ziggurat, evidence of an 8th century king and polytheism.

Oddly enough you yourself acknowledge the false premise of the one-God from the beginning otherwise why would Moses have had to kill thousands of idolaters and as you ask, lay down the commandment?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Seapeople
In one of the posts I did recently, I mathematicall concluded that the water needed to create a flood described in the bible would be impossible to obtain.

I am sure you saw the thread. Do you disagree with it? Does anyone disagree with it. If so, can anyone explain as to how I was wrong?

I cannot disagree but maybe some others would care to try.

I always wondered where the water went? The Ice caps arent large enough to hold it all, are they?

I calculated the amount of water it would take to cover the mountains plus 15 cubits. The amount of water needed would be well over 5 times the amount of water known to exist on this planet right now. Also, in the bible it references this water coming in the form of rain. At any given time there is approximately 3011 cubic miles of water existing as vaper in the atmosphere. It would be impossible to hold then 100's of trillions of cubic miles needed to rain that much water.

Further more, the added gravity that the earth would incur would surley be enough to alter the moons course as well as the earths. I am almost done with mathematical calculations for that.

Who wants to take a poll as to whether the moon would have crashed into the earth by now or not with that added mass...

quote: Originally posted by toolmaker
Hebrew is derived directly from Phoenician, almost exactly. It is no wonder that the stories about Noah, Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, Eden, etc are borrowed from cultures all over the world. They came "prepackaged" with the language.

But could not the reverse be true? That other cultures knew about them because they were true? I fail to see how this disproves the Bible.


Its the Timeline involved; The Epic of Gilgamesh (Great Flood) occured about 1500-1800 years before the time Noahs flood is dated to occur(per the Bible), and extends to the rest of the stories and parables.



I believe that the Phoenician Culture ranged the whole world, trading with Peoples in Africa, Australian, Europe, South America and Asia. Its how stories were spread the world over, and why almost every culture has a story of the great flood and similar stories about eden, etc, why diverse languages have similar root origins. Many alphabets can be traced to the phoenician, and an even earlier Mother language although the evidence for Phoenician is stronger. Phoenician may have been the language used to trade for merchants, just as English is the Language used by All air traffic today.


The Bible is a great work, dont get me wrong. But it is not Literal. It cannot be. This does not invalidate the Message, Although humanity has corrupted the message.

Most of the stories in the bible were exaggeration and adapted by other myths. Let’s talk about the controversial flood story.

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; For the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen.6:11-13)

The story of Noah and the flood originated as a monotheistic verion of the Hermopolitan creation myth and presented an expanded account of events of the first day of Creation.The more you research on the bible stories the more they are link to the Egyptian myths.

The cosmogony, or the religious teaching concerning the creation of the Universe as taught by Egyptian religion, in particular the city of Heliopolis was evolved in a city that was the center of the cult of Ra, the supreme Godhead made visible in the sun.

www.egyptcx.netfirms.com...

The Hermopolitan Creation myth is of four males and four females that came to earth from the primeval flood, see the link to “flood”
In the story of Noah, too, four males and four females emerged from a world wide flood after a mountain arouse out of the water.
The names of Noah and his tree sons closely resemble the names associated with the Egyptian Creation cycle.

In old biblical Hebrew, the name “Noah” (which should be transliterated as “Noach”) consists of only two letters “Nun” and “Ched”. WE don’t know the original vowels were because old Hebrew text did not use vowels.
“Nun”the Hebrew name for the first leter of Noah’s name is the same world the Egyptians use to name the primeval flood.

Also Noah and Nun had the image of a serpent, in Hebrew writing, the letter Nun evolved from the image of a serpent.

Shem is the oldest son of Noah’s three sons and he has the most unusual name, In Hebrew it means “Name” so in other words Noah name his son “Name” and it does not make sense. The word “Shem” is often use in Hebrew as the roots of the word “Shemoneh” meaning eight. This makes the connection to the Egyptian city of Hermppolis that is Greek for Shmn, which means “eight-towns” naming the eight deities that came from the flood and al, so the eight people that emerged from Noah Ark.

Ham, the second son of Noah, is pronounced “Chem” in Hebrew and is despicted as the father of the Egyptian and African peoples.
The third son of Noah, is Japheth in Greek Iapetos, a deity who son Deucalion, was the hero of yes another mythical flood of Greek.
So the flood of the bible characters relate to the Egyptian Myth of creation and the deities, Noah as Nun, (the primeval food) Ham the first land, Shem the city of Hemopolis, Shmn built on the first land and Japheth the first creator deity.

The jewish scribes had a hard time changing the stories of the Egyptian myth of creation into the Jewish history one.


[edit on 20-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by infinite
The true bible codes, the hidden messages, is too complex for a human mind to write. The codes are placed with detail meanings ,and accurate aswell, that its has been proven its sciencetifically impossible for it to be coindence.

The book of Daniel and Revelations are perfect examples of how the Bible is the word of God. Example of a code in the bible that proves it before it is said to happen. Russia and Iran. The bible code predicts Russia will aid Iran when it is attacked by America/Israel..Russia has already came to the aid with Iran by stating they are not planning to build nuclear weapons.

AMEN ! i could have not put it better