Would you accept a no-raise promotion?

Absolutely!.. A "title", can have more "effect" on "society".
Nobody "worth" their weight, gripes about not getting, "paid enough". If they do? They need to go jump off a cliff. So stupid questions like this "op", doesn't get asked and made "mainstream"...

a reply to: toysforadults

if it is simply more responsibility and thats it then probably not.
if it was a position where i could gain more skills for down the road or if it allowed me to hob knob with certain technical people to put me in a position to pick their brain then absolutely yes

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


I have too, I took a VP position and did not get a pay raise but it gave me more experience which is what you need in the professional world now a days.

~Morpheus

a reply to: Nyiah

Not necessarily.

If there are 20 people in a dept who all do the same thing, the ambitious will look for ways to distinguish him or herself. That doesn't always come with a pay raise, but it will always come with offering to take on more in some way.

Do a good job and people notice. That's how you mark yourself out as better than the other 19 people in your dept. with your job description. Take on more and do a good job and you really have someone's attention, and if you don't, then you have something on your resume that makes you more marketable than the other 19 when you decide to take that job and shove it for an employer who will appreciate what you now can bring to the table.

originally posted by: Puppylove
No I would not as doing so would mean I'm part of the problem by participating in predatory workplace practices. If no one accepted such promotions then by necessity all would come with pay raises. So sick of people willing to be used in turn screwing over not only themselves but everyone else.

You still haven't explained why it's anyone's job to stand in solidarity with all their coworkers more than it is to stand in solidarity with their immediate family.

If I am making a move that will benefit my family, then I will. They will always, always come before coworkers.

You're making an argument like the progressive in favor of public school who was urging all parents to sacrifice their children in crappy public schools, and this was how it was phrased, for a poorly perceived long-term (as in generational) goal of somehow improving public education through making our kids' educations horrific for them.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
a reply to: toysforadults

if it is simply more responsibility and thats it then probably not.
if it was a position where i could gain more skills for down the road or if it allowed me to hob knob with certain technical people to put me in a position to pick their brain then absolutely yes

There is advantages to any promotion sometimes long term sometimes short term like pay raise. What it comes down to is simple is the change worth it because of future options it will give you?

a reply to: ketsuko

Actually you're destroying your own children's futures by making things worse for them when the continual degradation of the work environment due to your short sighted selfish actions. Every person that sells out encourages these practices and spreads them further. Instead of punishing bad business practices you are encouraging them and helping them spread and in your support of them, you are making so your future generations will be living in a more abysmal #hole of your own creation.

originally posted by: Puppylove
No I would not as doing so would mean I'm part of the problem by participating in predatory workplace practices. If no one accepted such promotions then by necessity all would come with pay raises. So sick of people willing to be used in turn screwing over not only themselves but everyone else.

I have seen that most often. Our supervisor uses the terror method. New coworkers are always afraid they will be terminated so they take on more duties, the stressful duties. These duties should come with a higher pay scale buy my company is 'thrifty'. It is always the same story. They get used and abused, stressing out so much you can see the frustration and anger grow until they leave for another department or just quit.

I call it selling the soul for nothing. They think they will get compensated down the road for their efforts, but you can see that light die after 18-24 months. They are even given promotions to a high tier tech level, with no pay.

I have been at the same employer for 16 years and I love my job. If a person plays stupid enough and does their job well enough, there is no fear. They look at me like I have no ambition, while I sit here and smile (+nod).

a reply to: SocratesJohnson

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few". Good little socialists and Democratic "thinkers". TV is fiction, entertaining and not reality.
Half the problem with society today is they think they should get paid "extra", for being a "leader". When they're supposed to be a leader because that is what "society" is "paying" them to do in the first place. Any "government type" employees have no room to gripe. They get well paid for any "private sector" equivalent doing the same job. What they have is bad spending habits, like their employer. They need to take on "titles" with honor and not a with "I should get paid more" attitude. They have a useless job by the good, even ignorant, graces of society. They should be happy with that.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Completely agree, plus the promotion might come with non-pay benefits, like not having to do whatever it is you were doing the week before.

a reply to: Puppylove

So, when I need the upward trajectory the better resume brings, I should just suffer in silence and doom myself to mediocrity in the hope that everyone else does the same?

Nah, sorry, if I wanted that, I'd go get a union job.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Question:

Why are you still there?

It is almost like you can tell who are the worker drones commenting and who are the managers commenting. I guess it all depends on what side of the fence you are. Self preservation for management trying to eek out all they can so their budget looks good versus the worker trying to keep their head above water.

I am glad I have never left the worker drone world. I would probably hate myself being a supervisor or manager at my company. You can definitely see how much management has to compromise with their morals and speak falsely because telling the truth would expose the game.

You can also tell the good socialists 'good for the company/nation' at the expense of the individual from the lovers of freedom. When people aren't true to themselves foremost is when things start going downhill.

originally posted by: toysforadults
Everyone else, I think this is a perspective that comes from younger people being screwed by the 2008 collapse of the market that never recovered. This is what has lead to the explosive popularity of Trump and Bernie Sanders. I will admit that the last 2 years things have gotten A LOT better. However I think this speaks volumes to the dire circumstances the market has been in since 2008. People will literally do anything to get ahead including taking promotions with no corresponding increase income.

I would. I want to have a higher impact on the world and a promotion is a way to do that.

Now, we all know the unemployement number tends to be BS however if the number is true and there really is that much work then this trend should no longer exist correct?

We've been at full employment for about 4 years now. The biggest problem employers have these days is in finding qualified employees. I don't know the numbers for every field, but I do know that there's currently over 1 million open Computer Science jobs in the US and that's after outsourcing and H1B's.

Interestingly though, most of these jobs go unfilled. Not because there's no applicants (in fact the average in CS is over 500 applicants for every position) but because the potential employees aren't qualified enough. We're turning out under educated workers in a field where 4 years isn't enough to even learn the basics. As a result, there's a huge shortfall of qualified workers. Throw in the fact that companies don't actually know what criteria they need to use to hire someone and the whole thing becomes a mess. That's why we've seen the rise of bootcamps.

There's other reasons for other fields.

The laws of supply and demand should come into the equation and if there's not enough people working we should see a corresponding increase in wage growth and incentives that compete for more talented employees if I'm not mistaken.

Here's the problem. While there's a downward pressure on skilled labor, which makes it unskilled over time. The remaining skilled work becomes more and more specialized, leading to a need of more and more education. There is very little in the middle in terms of jobs these days. While in the past everyone needed 12 years of public school and then maybe a couple yeras of college, the labor market today demands nothing more than public school for most, and then some very in depth education for a few. It's these positions that require a lot of education that are going unfilled. Everyone wants to attract talent so that they can move forward with their companies plans but there's not enough to go around.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ClovenSky

Question:

Why are you still there?

Because I love what I do. Troubleshooting...lots and lots of troubleshooting with new and unique challenges every other day. But I can see the other side of my department, the business side. Those that get the honor of dealing with the likes of verizon & at&t, arvig & mammoth, sprint & KFN ... the entitlement of these large corporations and our stupid SLAs that we promised them is a no win situation. Pure greed from both us and them with us techs getting stuck in the middle.

We just tried to sell an EVC circuit over radio frequency, basically a fiber circuit over coax RF with a UDP protocol. What a fricken disaster. Pure greed. New recruits see this as a very fast way to move up. They get their CCNA & CCNP certs then proceed to burn out. Maybe I just have the advantage of seeing this because I am lazy.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: schuyler

if that's true then wouldn't that drive wage/ incentive growth for those with the skills?

It has. That's why the average new grad salary for a tech worker in San Francisco or NYC is $115k+benefits. That's why new grad total compensation at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Amazon is $200k, and why 5 years at one of those companies practically guarantees you $500k.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: strongfp

so I hire you, give you a promotion without a raise, you acquire the skills and leave my company

how does that benefit me long term?

You filled the job and they made you money for a time.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

hmmm, interesting, so what's the difference between then and now?

Automation is making manufacturing a moot career path

Not entirely. Manufacturing just requires a different skill set. The company I work for manufacturers a huge range of scientific and medical equipment. Some of the simple industrial equipment requires no skill set at all to build, we literally hire walk in's off the street. This equipment also tends to not provide much revenue, it really exists just to have more branded products in labs. On the other hand, some of our big products that are complex, cutting edge machines will only hire repairmen and factory workers to assemble/repair the products that have their doctorates, or occasionally a masters. We look for chemists, biologists, and so on for these positions.

Low end manufacturing is disappearing, but the high end stuff is thriving. The workers simply haven't kept up with industry demand.

Yeah I did when I opened my store. For two years! But I was always on top in paying my sales people and my creditors. Hey beans ain't bad lol.

originally posted by: Edumakated
Depends on the situation.

Long-term strategic thinkers may see a benefit if the additional responsibility makes them more marketable outside of the employer or maybe gives them some additional skills that might increase compensation later.

Short-term thinkers probably wouldn't want additional responsibility without compensation.

That's part of it. In my case though, I genuinely care about the quality of the product. I don't have much confidence in my own abilities, but in general I have even less confidence in other people. If I believe I'm the best choice for the job, I'll take it regardless of the pay.