A real expert talking about an EMP attack !

a reply to: Gothmog

I listened to part of that TV show. Some big Transformers do indeed take years on order. He made the point that the manufacturers of them, will have the same power failures as everyone else. Unless your locality could build your own, then look out. What I don't know is if one Nuke, high enough to cover the 48 States, wouldn't weaken enough to let most of the Power grid survive. But a few Nukes low enough, to only cover big population centers, and look out.

And as power comes back in dribs and drabbs, there will be WWII blackouts every night. And then we'll have Hood Rats rummaging around for food and swag, every darn night. There are reports of looters hitting Leilani Estates while everyone is being evacuated from lava flows.

As is usually the case, where the people hang together, they can survive, but only under the same rugged military discipline as the Wagon Trains observed in the mid Nineteenth Century. I once spoke with a German hostel R.A. who had to live on G.I. peanut butter in K Rations for an entire year. She couldn't stand to eat one more stale K Ration pack, unless her life depended on it. They had cases piled up in the basement of the Augsburg, International Youth Hostel, so a couple of us touring students got three days worth of free lunches. Back in 1971, you had to move on, after three days in any one Hostel.

Screw the AC

It is a stupid system anyhow.

The majority of our tech is DC anyhow.

Oh but we do not want choice so let's get rid of universal motors...

In the past i figured an emp would be the quickest to take down a grid.

Now i see a failure in government and such is more likely.

ex... porto rico

This is actually very scary. And the main dooms day scenarios that I believe could happen. Unfortunately, I'm not in a situation that I could properly prepare for this.

ETA: if this happened and all electronics went out how long would it take for people to really understand what happened? I'm sure they would be confused when they go to call the electric company and their phones don't work either.

There are so many different levels of destruction an emp could bring.

Anything from knocking out the power via transformers to knocking out all digital devices.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

So far as electrical power goes, E1 is the real killer. That is what my previous post was referring to: the sudden burst of electromagnetic pulse that comes from a nuclear explosion.

E2 is mostly 'mischief' after E1 takes out the grid. E3 is more of a long-lasting disorientation of normal forces.

So far as other infrastructure, that would be the shock wave itself, which is not electromagnetic in nature. What Prye was talking about (space-based EMP weapons) would not produce much of a shock wave, but it would definitely produce an E1 pulse that would destroy any unshielded electronics.

TheRedneck

a reply to: howtonhawky

An interconnecting distribution system is not feasible with DC. Please educate yourself.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I guess we differ a little on the effects. Love to discuss it though...

...
The prompt E1 couples well to local antennas, short (1–10 m) cable runs, equipment in buildings (through apertures), and can disrupt or damage integrated circuit (IC)-based control systems, sensors, communication systems, protective systems, computers, and similar devices. The most common protection against the effects of E1 is the use of electromagnetic shielding, filters, and surge arresters [11].

E2 couples well to longer conductive lines, vertical antenna towers, and aircraft with trailing wire antennas. It is similar to lightning in its time-dependence, but would, of course, be more geographically widespread, while being lower in intensity, especially for a low-yield weapon. As the EMP commission acknowledges, the E2 pulse would not, in general, be an issue for critical infrastructure systems since they already have protective measures for defense against occasional lightning strikes.

The E3 pulse couples well to power and long communications lines including undersea and underground cables. The low frequencies (sub-Hertz) of E3 make shielding and isolation difficult. Experience from both geomagnetic storms and 1960s-era Russian and American nuclear testing indicates that there is a great likelihood of commercial power and landline disruption from E3 pulses of powerful (>100 kt) nuclear devices. Small isolated systems will however, typically, be unaffected by E3. The E3 environment is so slowly varying that quasi-DC analysis models are appropriate for estimating the behavior of the induced power system responses.

Dr. Radsaky and Mr. Kappenman have summarized the effects of E1 and E3 from a large nuclear device in their statement before the House Homeland Security Subcommittee on Emerging Threats, Cybersecurity, and Science and Technology:

For the operation of the electric power grid, the… E1 and E3 pulses are the most important. Research performed for the EMP Commission clearly indicates the following concerns:
1) Malfunctions and damage to solid-state relays in electric substations (E1)
2) Malfunctions and damage to computer controls in power generation facilities, substations, and control centers (E1)
3) Malfunctions and damage to power system communications (E1)
4) Flashover and damage to distribution class insulators (E1)
5) Voltage collapse of the power grid due to transformer saturation (E3)
6) Damage to [High Voltage] HV and [Extremely High Voltage] EHV transformers due to internal heating (E3)

The E1, E2, and E3 EMP subcomponents scale differently with weapon yield (and design) so it is important to be clear what effects one is interested in: i.e. effects on IC-based electronics (which couple strongly with E1) or electrical power systems connected to long-lines (which couple most strongly with E3, and auroral EMP). The salient issues are, then, what strengths of E1 and E3 pulses one may expect over what parts of the country from the types of devices adversarial states possibly possess (or may possess in the foreseeable future) and, of course, how likely the actors are to carry out such an attack. Before addressing those questions, it is useful to review the actual measured effects of EMP from Cold War ear nuclear tests.

...

-Space Review

Source

Redneck, no some of the biggest interties between the BPA here in the Northwest, and Cali are indeed D.C. But they are extremely high voltage. Like over one million volts. It would be interesting to know if the common L.E.D. flashlights would still work?? The old incandescent flashlight bulbs should still work O.K. along with any automobiles made before 1961. Tube radios should also survive, but what about all the modern electronics in the Radio Stations??

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

It is indeed an interesting subject. I only hope we can keep our conversation in the theoretical. The practical results of an EMP have too high a tendency to... well, to suck, to put it bluntly.

That reminds me of Fukushima... for years we had these theories of what would happen during a full-blown nuclear meltdown. Now, thanks to the Fukushima power plant, we know all to well what will happen. I guess all experiments are not good things...

Anyway...

The excerpt you quote does what I mentioned before... it tends to emphasize the electrical phenomena and downplay the magnetic. The claimed saturation of an electrical grid transformer could cause an overload shut-down, but it would likely do little actual physical damage. That's because the outputs cannot react to a saturated core; there is no derivative of the flux to react to. As a result, the inputs would present a very high inductive load and that would serve as a sort of self-protection.

E1, however, would cause both an extremely fast saturation event and a high voltage on the inputs. The length of the wires is going to be directly proportional to a magneticly induced voltage. So we have two issues inside the transformer: An overvoltage condition in the transformer inputs and a sudden change of core magnetization. The former will place stress on the insulation surrounding the primary windings, while the latter will cause a huge power surge from the secondary. The E1 pulse will thus cause overvoltage conditions throughout both windings and lead to insulation breakdown and internal arcing.

By contrast, the derivative of the E3 pulse will be low, as it is much slower than the E1 pulse. Will it be more intrusive? Yes, quite probably. But the damaging effects will not be nearly as severe in terms of continuing consequences. An E3 pulse will likely stop the transformer from operation, but will leave an operable transformer behind after it subsides. An E1 pulse will happen so fast it will be over before anyone realizes it, but it will leave behind burned insulation that will render transformers inoperative... not to mention a lot of equipment fried from that nanosecond pulse of high voltage.

TheRedneck

Why hang around?

Head south of the border, caravans!

Carbo Wabo! or El Salvador!

Or Canada!

a reply to: TheRedneck


It's amazing that the Carrington event which happened 159 years ago was no big deal and today it's 90% death of Americans. We have become so electrically dependent. Which is why many prepare to live off grid.

a reply to: carpooler

You might want to check on that high voltage DC power transmission. That sounds like an extremely expensive way to waste power.

As far as different appliances' susceptibility, it would depend on what type of components are used as you say. LEDs are typically pretty hardy devices, but they can be burned out from overheating. I doubt a microsecond or nanosecond pulse would harm them; most displays use multiplexing, which overdrives the LEDs in very short pulses.

Incandescent bulbs would possibly be OK as well, depending of course on how much voltage is applied during the event.

I'm honestly not sure about LCDs. I know they use a magnetic component internally to turn on and off, but I'm not sure how susceptible they would be to magnetic derivatives. I need to check that out.

Believe it or not, the ignition system in an older car is likely the single most susceptible device out there... the coils use huge windings to achieve spark plug voltages and there is no protection. Luckily, most of those are safely encased under a steel hood (aka a Faraday cage), so that would have some shielding.

The largest weakness in electronics is MOSFET design, which is now more popular by far than bipolar. That encompasses about every modern communication medium known... definitely including radio transmitters.

TheRedneck

a reply to: StoutBroux

That dependency is exactly why we are susceptible to weaponized EMPs. They won't hurt life much, but they can do terribly catastrophic things to electronics.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Well, simply put, my friend; you and I both understand Physics. Whether E1 or E3 seems somewhat immaterial (for us).

We can discuss all of this after the event. We can discuss where we were wrong and where we were right, but at the end of the day neither one of us "know" the real answer, now do we?

I would wager a simple country like NK doesn't have the technology to lob a big EMP device over the US. They are but simple people, not that kind of a device. AND, I would encourage you to research the devices which really do work....and why.

I would think "doctrine" would dictate offense before defense. Nobody gets a free play...on an EMP!

Redneck,

They know...it's a horrible thing, but they know.

For all our smarts, for everything you and I know; there is a deterrent far greater than us. Far greater.

The DMZ in NK is guarded by defensive weapons, protections and survival. In 30 minutes "North Korea" would cease to exist, and the entire US Military action would be to retreat. The DMZ would cease to exist.

Jong Il can do what he wishes. He can unleash horror beyond imagination, but he and his culture of personality will be decimated. He might kill millions, but he will LOSE. And, he will lose BADLY.

People do not mis-understand these geopolitics. This guy has the end-game of terror, not Iran (they're smarter than that)

We have 50,000 warriors begging him to play the card...and we will "GO"

It's a sad and tenuous balance. We live in a strange world. But, it is what it is.

And so we go.

Best.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Yes, we do both understand physics. I love debating these topics with you. Which pulse does what is indeed immaterial from my point of view; the material aspects of what happens during the event is the important part.

I hope and pray we never get to discuss "where we were wrong." I would much prefer to simply live in ignorance on that point. It vastly beats finding out for real, like we did in Fukushima.

On the subject of North Korea, you may be right. But the requirement for something to produce an EMP is not that high. An EMP pretty much is the result of any sufficiently powerful violent explosion. It's just the atomic structures reverting to a less energetic state. The only reason it is associated with nuclear is because we have precious few conventional weapons that can create that level of explosion. So all North Korea need do is manage to get one rocket high enough over the US and detonate. I'll admit they're not the brightest bulb in the box technologically, but that's really not a major feat either.

Of course, should that happen, we would indeed attack in force. One small nuke could cause extensive damage, but it could not disable the entire country. That would take multiple blasts in different areas. So let's also agree to hope that Little Kim is not as much of a malevolent force for war as he wants us all to believe.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
Why hang around?

Head south of the border, caravans!

Carbo Wabo! or El Salvador!

Or Canada!

My friend if it is a solar EMP all the countries you listed will be in the same boat..

Puerto Rico after all these months still does not have their power in some places back...and that is after a massive aide effort .

I always figured that maybe after a Big EMP private aircraft keep in metal hangers might not be so badly affected; some would/might be flyable.. My plan has always been to get out of my present location if it became non survivable by flying an aircraft someplace more stable and inviting....

Many guys top off the tanks before storing their aircraft to keep water condensation from forming in the tanks.. so ....hopefully fuel would not be a big issue... However...Siphoning fuel from one aircraft to another is pretty simple even with a garden hose if you have to.. Just a few thoughts on my part...

a reply to: 727Sky

Great Thread on a very important
and neglected matter .

Excellent interview link as well.

Thank You! S&F

a reply to: TheRedneck

HVDC is indeed used in certain situations, such as when:

- Point-to-point power transmission is required
- Extremely high power
- Long distance
- undersea power transmission
- uncoupled electric power grids are to be connected

carpooler was indeed correct, but you are correct in that it's not possible to build an entire T&D system out of DC (yet).

Pacific DC Intertie

The Pacific DC Intertie (also called Path 65) is an electric power transmission line that transmits electricity from the Pacific Northwest to the Los Angeles area using high voltage direct current (HVDC). The line capacity is 3,100 megawatts, which is enough to serve two to three million Los Angeles households and represents almost half (48.7%) of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) electrical system's peak capacity.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

1,000 kV and 3100 A.