Police Threaten Arrest If Citizens Speak Out Against the State-Sanctioned Death of Baby Alfie Evans

a reply to: andy06shake

Our Doctors and system gave up.
Their Doctors at least wanted to try, and that was the parents wish.

Our Doctors didn't give up, the child had a terminal illness, he was going to die, it was an unavoidable and inevitable outcome.

What exactly do you think the Italian doctors were going to try?

a reply to: RAY1990

Fine your right but who pays the bills in the court house? Who built it who keeps the lights on..

Not me, not you but who... the government..who pays the judge? Not you.. who the government. Again we are getting off topic and back into semantics, I think I am gonna go to general eyes topic now. It’s a little more peaceful but regardless at least we are debating this and I think it’s important to care about this story.

a reply to: andy06shake

What if?, what if?, what if?

Well his second name was Evans and that’s all that matters.

originally posted by: Bicent
Probably it’s there right I might be wrong also, why would I think it was wrong is what I would be asking myself..

That's one thing I think is in the root of this problem, people don't think about what was right or wrong for the child.

For example, in the court ruling that said that the hospital could turn off life support it says that the doctors said that there was no need for more MRI scans, but the judge asked for a last scan to be sure he based his opinion in more recent data. Alfie's father didn't want a new MRI scan either.

If you were the father and were looking for a way of helping your son why wouldn't you want a more recent scan? A new scan could show that the child was stable or doing better, and would help the father's case for keeping the life support. The fact that the father didn't want a new scan makes me think (and the judge thought the same) that the father knew that there was no hope for the child but he didn't want to just let him die.

Was he wrong or was he right? I don't know, I only know that I don't want to be in a position like that, either the parent or the judge that had to give his ruling about it. I'm just a programmer, when I'm wrong I can rewrite the code and nobody gets hurt, but a decision from a doctor or a judge can change several lives forever.

a reply to: Argyll

I think they would have fed the poor wee chap to begin with and restored life support.

Then who knows?

That would/should have been for far greater medical minds and the parents to ultimately decern.

I think that's what the parents wished.

I think our authorities were wrong.

I know i'm dlunk, and possibly not the best time to ask my opinion. LoL

originally posted by: Bicent
No because debating the semantics is not productive, point well taken, their will be two sides no matter what.

I only asked what you meant, if you don't want to explain what you meant what's the point on keeping on talking?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

He's dead that also matters.

But by whose hands or inaction?

a reply to: andy06shake

Everyones saying hes terminal blah blah blah......maybe, maybe not, they never gave him a diagnosis, they made a few guesses at what they THOUGHT it could be but never went further then that......

It should not be the states rights to refuse the family the ability to fight for the life of their child.......

If they wanted to choose to take him to Italy to try and save him, that should be their choice......

This bs that "he was too fragile" is a logical fallacy.........well if he died in transit what difference does it make? At least they were trying....he was going to die anyway from what you guys are saying, SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE if they want to fight for him?

It shouldnt......and it should be their damn right to do so

Period end of

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Bicent
Exactly why didn’t the hospital let the parents take the child somewhere else that would allow them to keep the child on life support RIGHT OR WRONG.

Would you let the parents of a child you had been taking care of to take it away if you thought was wrong?

If the doctors thought moving it was the wrong decision it's natural they would object.

The doctors wanted to let him die anyway....

The doctors had 2 choices , let him go to the Vatican hospital and get a chance even 1% is worth it.. if it doesnt work he dies..

Or take him off the tube throw their hands in the air and let him die..

They actually chose to take it to court so they could just let him die..

people wake up from comas after 30 years that were never supposed to wake up.. People have been giving 0% chance to live and pulled through.

kids are resilient creatures.

originally posted by: andy06shake
If Alfie's second name had been Rockefeller, or Windsor for that matter, do you imagine these independent UK courts would have come to the same conclusion?

I'm sure that in that case things would have been different and wouldn't have reached this situation: Alfie wouldn't have had only two MRI scans in six months, for example, he would have been in a different situation (even in the same hospital) and the hospital would probably have been only pointing that was pointless to keep the boy alive and only turn off life support when the parents would agree.

a reply to: ArMaP

Choosing on what to focus on is my choice and semantics is pretty black and white. I read your post before this one to me and understand your stance on this affair. No sense in explaining semantics after reading that. Anyhow I think I am done talking now about this story, we are blessed for not being in this position not having to deal with this.

originally posted by: Argyll
a reply to: andy06shake

Our Doctors and system gave up.
Their Doctors at least wanted to try, and that was the parents wish.

Our Doctors didn't give up, the child had a terminal illness, he was going to die, it was an unavoidable and inevitable outcome.

What exactly do you think the Italian doctors were going to try?

Anything but just let him die..

originally posted by: notsure1
The doctors wanted to let him die anyway....

The Italian doctors also thought that it was dangerous to move him and that he could die in the journey to Italy.

The doctors had 2 choices , let him go to the Vatican hospital and get a chance even 1% is worth it.. if it doesnt work he dies..

He had the same chances in the Vatican hospital, none, the Italian doctors had the same opinion as the British doctors, there was nothing they could do to stop the disease from destroying the child's brain. The last MRI scan asked by the judge showed that most of the brain's white matter was gone.

Or take him off the tube throw their hands in the air and let him die..

He would die anyway, it was only a matter of time, as the disease was progressing and destroying the boy's brain.

He was going to the Vatican maybe they were hoping for divine intervention who the hell wasnt praying for him?

Miracles happen all the time..

a reply to: notsure1
A miracle would be the only possibility, but I don't think someone needs to be in a specific hospital for a miracle to happen, the Catholic's god is supposed to be anywhere.

a reply to: ArMaP

You guys keep saying he was going to die anyway .. Well duh we are all going to die anyway just maybe not today.

And he would not have died that day or any time soon if he was not taken off the tube..

Leave my F$$$$$$ plug alone..

a reply to: ArMaP
It’s logical but we are still missing the point. I praise you for bringing logic into the story but still. The parents were superseded.

originally posted by: BlueAjah
I hope that those in the US who are pushing for a "free" US national health care system are paying close attention to this situation.
This is what happens when the government controls your health care.

This is what a “Death Panel” looks like....

a reply to: notsure1

How long do you think a person with the brain's white matter turned into water and cerebrospinal fluid would last? Another six months? One year?

One of the concerns was that, during this whole time the boy was in pain, as he wasn't able to communicate and there's no way of measuring pain, so if he was in pain or suffering from any kind, living one week or one year could be a big difference to the child.

originally posted by: ArMaP
a reply to: notsure1

How long do you think a person with the brain's white matter turned into water and cerebrospinal fluid would last? Another six months? One year?

One of the concerns was that, during this whole time the boy was in pain, as he wasn't able to communicate and there's no way of measuring pain, so if he was in pain or suffering from any kind, living one week or one year could be a big difference to the child.

There is also no way of knowing he wasnt in a state of pure bliss..