Manned Space Exploration...Why?

Your post can be summed up fairly easily by saying you are judging the possibility of future advancements based on current mainstream knowledge.

It's a terrible way to look at any problem. If your way of thinking were the only one humans had cavemen would populate the earth....


Why?

Because the knowledge base they had would say it's impossible to fly, it's impossible to farm, it's impossible to use selective breeding etc because the knowledge we have know is the knowledge we will always have.

Physics in generally is changing as we create the machinery necessary to make emperical tests of theoretical ideas. For instance many worlds, string, boson etc..

When we work on seemingly impossible projects there are also unintended positive disoveries for life on earth in the case of human space travel.

Also acceleration is the limit on the human body not speed. On top of that you have to think about the future of genetic engineering and the combination of bionic or cybornetic advancement which is already in the works.

In other words would you rather have the ability to have a colony on Mars which may be small and difficult when it's told an a stroud impact is coming or a super volcano is erupting or just be sol?

Are you sure we won't have machinery which can alter matter in ways we currently dont?

Are you sure people won't agree to genetic modification which will allow space travel?

The problem with your post is its based entirely on the premise what we have now is all we will ever have.

Kind of like matter is solid rather than a probability wave pattern..that would have seemed obsurb to many humans 300 years ago.

Quantum mechanics is giving us insights into deeper physics. We are at the baby level right now. Who knows what will be discovered. The why bother because we are flesh bag approach would never lead to new discoveries or problems getting solved.

We are not flesh bags. We are consciousness which is ever expanding. Or regressing unfortunately in some cases.

a reply to: luthier

No, that's not what I'm saying at all!

(and further, I don't think you've read the other posts here either).

What I am saying is, the human body has reached the edge of what it is capable of doing technologically / physiologically.

I'm not even remotely suggesting stopping research into science and physics! Nor am I even remotely suggesting stopping space exploration. Don't be obtuse.

What I am saying is, we have reached the edge of the envelope for humans to travel from point A to point B in space (with the expressed intent of reaching a different place). I am saying continuing to figure out ways to include humans in the space travel equation is a waste of both time, energy and money.

The human's place is on Earth, and our very physiology proves this. And, if at some point technology develops a meaningful way for man to establish a habitat in space, then fine, but until then expectations should be mankind is going to remain on Earth. This is not the same thing as saying mankind can expect to colonize another planet! It won't happen. And frankly, it's a dangerous excuse (to think that). If people realistically believe this to be possible then they will continue to ignore Earth thinking there is always some other planet we can go screw up.

Both physics and the medical sciences have proven that man is not suited for long distance, high velocity, travel in space to get somewhere "else".

That is what I am saying, and have been. In other words...forget man going to Mars to live!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

1. We need more than oxygen and water to survive. We are (sort of, sometimes) intelligent beings with curiosity. Any psychologist will tell you that humans also need "a variety of experiences" to maintain mental health. A substantial amount of our economy and society (TV, radio, movies, amusement parks, restaurants, concerts, etc.) cater to this need.

2. I've never been one to claim that Earth is overpopulated. But part of adapting to a larger population will be efficiency of use of the materials we have. Space exploration has already given us amazing technology. Two examples: the Internet, developed by DARPA in order to more efficiently exchange data between researchers and scientists, and the cell phone from communications advances originally developed to aid us in space exploration.

3. Sounds reasonable... or does it?

• Man will never be able to explore the ocean depths. The pressure is just too great.
  
• Man will never be able to fly; he is too dense and has no wings.
  
• Man will never travel faster than 30 mph; it is hazardous to human life.

4. Voyager is 40 year old technology. The more we explore, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we know. The more we know, the more we can do. The more we can do, the more we can explore.

5. Your argument is based on present knowledge. Who knows what we may discover in the future due to research to travel farther? We certainly won't know... unless we try it. We don't yet understand the medium we're traveling through (space time), so how can anyone state that our present view of acceleration and distance is even accurate? They really can't. Einstein proved that when he expanded Newton's Laws of Motion... physical laws that had been the very basis of research for quite some time... but which were inaccurate under certain conditions. Who is to say that Einstein's Relativity won't be expanded?

6. Mankind adapts, as does all life on our planet. Humans are not designed to live in northern regions either; our bodies require clothing in order to maintain body heat. Humans are not designed to live in arid regions; we are biologically pretty wasteful with water. To say we should not go somewhere because the conditions are suboptimal is to say there should be no one living in Arizona, or Minnesota, or Massachusetts, or Alaska...

7. Because it's hard, and it's cool to do hard things.

8. Machines cannot provide the same kind and/or quality of observational information a human can provide, nor can a machine adapt and reason in order to maximize information. A human can examine a specimen and determine immediately the next set of tests to be conducted; a machine must examine a specimen, relay the results to a human, and await further instructions. A man can feel the ground under his feet and determine if he needs to go around an area or if it is relatively safe to continue forward; a machine must move a short distance, relay information, and await instructions. The two drones on Mars right now move at a snail's pace, because faster movement would likely cause them to destroy themselves in an unexpected condition before humans could have time to analyze the information relayed back and send more instructions.

9. I'm not looking to meet ET. If ET is out there (and I have no doubt he is, somewhere), and at all familiar with the human race, ET isn't looking to meet us either. It's not exactly an intelligent move for a human to desire to meet a rabid tiger, and that analogy would extend to an actual intelligent species desiring to meet us. I would like to get a picture of the repeating space buoys stationed around the solar system that are broadcasting, in various extra-terrestrial languages,

WARNING! KEEP OUT! DANGEROUS CREATURES BEYOND THIS POINT!

That would be cool too.






But overall, why do we want to go to Mars? Because it's cool!

Just like this thread.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

We send a robot. It spends day, months, or years to get there. It sends back pictures that we look at on a monitor. It sends back data that we read and interpret. Facts are deduced and theories formulated, and these are presented as a power-point in a lecture hall...

Have you ever been on a date?

Why would anyone bother to date?

You can look at pictures of a person on a monitor. You can have whole files of images to see how they dress, and what they look like undressed. You can hear recordings of their voice. You can read data about their weight, body mass index, blood type, blood sugar, cholesterol levels. You can look at lab results of their urine and feces. You can find out what their job is, and read their performance evaluations. You can access their school transcripts, read the assignments they have turned-in. You can audit their grocery receipts, and replicate their dinner recipes.

Why would you bother to date?

What is it about walking next to a person. sitting across the table from someone, feeling their warmth as they lie next to you?

It's about the interactions; and not just between two people, but between a person and their environment.

Why spend thousands of dollars to fly to Nepal? I could show you a picture of sunrise on the Himalayas, and tell you what the temperature, humidity and barometric pressure was on that morning late in February of 1980, but that will not evoke what it was like to stand there in the cold, looking north to the mountains like a jagged cut-out of the deepest purple against an indigo sky; how the first pale orange light caught the stream of cirrus coming off the black triangle of Mt. Everest, 100 miles to the east; how each peak, one after the other was kissed by ocher light that drizzled languidly down the eastern slopes like slow strokes of God's paintbrush; or how I felt when the sun finally gleamed above the distant, rugged horizon, and at that moment, a shepherd started playing a flute.

Robots don't give you that.

"The vast loneliness up here of the moon is awe inspiring and it makes you realize just what you have back there on Earth. The Earth from here is a grand oasis in the big vastness of space."
—Jim Lovell, Apollo 8

Armstrong: "Isn't that something! Magnificent sight out here."
Aldrin: "Magnificent desolation."
- Apollo 11

"I kind of have two moons in my head, I guess, whereas most people just have one moon. I look at the moon just like everybody else who's never been there, and you know, there it is, and I've always thought it was interesting. Whether it's full or a sliver, or what have you. But every once in a while, I do think of a second moon, you know, the one that I recall from up close."
- Mike Collins, Apollo 11

"The Moon was the most spectacularly beautiful desert you can ever imagine. Unspoiled, untouched. It had a vibrancy about it. And the contrast between the Moon and the black sky was so vivid and... it just made this impression, you know, of excitement and wonder."
- Charlie Duke, Apollo 16

"We learned a lot about the Moon, but what we really learned was about the Earth. The fact that just from the distance of the Moon, you can put your thumb up, and you can hide the Earth behind your thumb. Everything that you have ever known, your loved ones, your business, the problems of the Earth itself, all behind your thumb."
- Jim Lovell

You don't get that from robots.

You're probably wanting to type, "Yeah, but..."

Stuff it.

This is one of those things where if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: luthier

No, that's not what I'm saying at all!

(and further, I don't think you've read the other posts here either).

What I am saying is, the human body has reached the edge of what it is capable of doing technologically / physiologically.

I'm not even remotely suggesting stopping research into science and physics! Nor am I even remotely suggesting stopping space exploration. Don't be obtuse.

What I am saying is, we have reached the edge of the envelope for humans to travel from point A to point B in space (with the expressed intent of reaching a different place). I am saying continuing to figure out ways to include humans in the space travel equation is a waste of both time, energy and money.

The human's place is on Earth, and our very physiology proves this. And, if at some point technology develops a meaningful way for man to establish a habitat in space, then fine, but until then expectations should be mankind is going to remain on Earth. This is not the same thing as saying mankind can expect to colonize another planet! It won't happen. And frankly, it's a dangerous excuse (to think that). If people realistically believe this to be possible then they will continue to ignore Earth thinking there is always some other planet we can go screw up.

Both physics and the medical sciences have proven that man is not suited for long distance, high velocity, travel in space to get somewhere "else".

That is what I am saying, and have been. In other words...forget man going to Mars to live!

I think you misunderstand my post as well as you haven't replied at all to the rebuttals.

One..we have not reached limits of any kind. We have reached current road blocks.

We have not reached actual limits on traveling from point A To B. Actual physics is exploring both wormholes and warp drive concepts. Actual physics are exploring dimensional models beyond mainstream understanding.

People don't have to mess up the earth. Probability will. It's inevitable in fact. Whether blytes, disease, impact from space objects, pole shifts etc.


You also disregard the fact we are going to have genetic engineering, and cybornetics, as well a things like hypersleep.

Mars colonization will lead to new discoveries and the rush of new ideas.

a reply to: TheRedneck

But overall, why do we want to go to Mars? Because it's cool!

Well, as I noted; that's a perfectly acceptable answer.

But let's just all agree on that being the real motivating factor, and not some pie in the sky notion man is going to "escape" a broken Earth to go live there anytime soon...or ever. Cuz that ain't gonna' happen.

As a species, we must expand out or face inevitable extinction. We are always one big asteroid away from complete extinction...spreading out among the stars will ensure our legacy

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: TheRedneck

But overall, why do we want to go to Mars? Because it's cool!

Well, as I noted; that's a perfectly acceptable answer.

But let's just all agree on that being the real motivating factor, and not some pie in the sky notion man is going to "escape" a broken Earth to go live there anytime soon...or ever. Cuz that ain't gonna' happen.

When you look at a baby starting to crawl, do you frown and say why bother, they won't be running a marathon anytime soon?
...one step after another. perhaps in several hundred years there will be cities in various parts of the solar system...all starts from one small step.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: TheRedneck

But overall, why do we want to go to Mars? Because it's cool!

Well, as I noted; that's a perfectly acceptable answer.

But let's just all agree on that being the real motivating factor, and not some pie in the sky notion man is going to "escape" a broken Earth to go live there anytime soon...or ever. Cuz that ain't gonna' happen.

Your statement is absolutely false, has no supporting data except the knowledge we currently posses is the only knowledge we will have.

a reply to: Saint Exupery

So basically your reasoning is...because it's cool. And, because you want to. Not because you "need" to.

Okay.

a reply to: luthier

So is your statement absolutely false. You can't say with 100% certainty this will be the case. I probably would have chosen "doubt" or "disagree" over "false".

An asteroid could slam into Earth at 4pm today and it would be lights out. You can't say 100% certainly otherwise.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: luthier

So is your statement absolutely false. You can't say with 100% certainty this will be the case. I probably would have chosen "doubt" or "disagree" over "false".

An asteroid could slam into Earth at 4pm today and it would be lights out. You can't say 100% certainly otherwise.

Your really grasping at straws now.

Are we still homoerectus? Or did we evolve? Are you saying space travel is biologically impossible?

It seems you can't understand there is a difference between current knowledge, theoretical possibility, and junk science.

Is which statement I made false? A false statement is one made with absolutely no evidence which you have made.

Were atomic bombs possible 200k years ago? Yep. We just lacked the knowledge. 200k years ago we could have had NYC. But we lacked the knowledge.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

But let's just all agree on that being the real motivating factor, and not some pie in the sky notion man is going to "escape" a broken Earth to go live there anytime soon...or ever. Cuz that ain't gonna' happen.

History is filled with things that "ain't gonna happen."

Yeah, I want us to go because it's cool. Want to know what's even cooler? I could help. I've already had a power control system sitting in the upper atmosphere helping to gather data. That was damn cool! But that was only because I went back to school and got my degree. At over 50 years old. Do you realize how many people during the last 20 of those 50 years told me it "ain't gonna happen"?

A heck of a lot.

Who is to say that in 20 years we won't discover an asteroid the size of California heading towards California, and realize we now have the ability to turn it away from us? It is a possibility... maybe not my primary reason for wanting to push out into the stars, but certainly a nice little side benefit... well, depending on one's opinion of California, of course, but that's a different subject.

I kid, I kid! Californians, don't get all offended!

Never say something "ain't gonna happen." Humans may be greedy, unscrupulous, petty, vengeful, nasty, despicable creatures, but they do have one redeeming characteristic: they make things happen.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I kind of trip out over everything we can do know was possible millions of years ago...the only limit was consciousness and knowledge.

We are literally at the point we could artificialy create memories and knowledge into apes and make them haveadvanced language. Their physiology allows it.

Edit.

Also want to point out information packets are how physicists view particles moving through space time. When you start and grasp that meaning you start to wonder if the biological form we travel in would be important or is it the consciousness inside.

a reply to: luthier

I have to admit that kind of amazes me as well. Sometimes I just sit out in my shop, looking around at all the equipment and tools I use to make things, and wonder at how many years we spent just trying to get to this point.

Then I think about where we'll be in 100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years... technology is exponential, not linear. It probably took less time to go from the iron age to carbon fiber as it probably did to go from the stone age to the bronze age. I can't even comprehend what will be possible then, and I'm a research engineer! It's my job to make the impossible possible!

TheRedneck

Manned space flight? I am all for it. There are no planets in the solar system, as it is today, that have the capability of sustaining human life without dependence on resources sent from Earth. Scientist should continue with their extra solar planet search then send high speed probes to the most likely candidates.

I have read that some scientist consider terra-forming Mars as a possibility. In my opinion this is not possible because Mars's mass will only support a heavy gas like C02 and as far as water, there has never been any carbonic acid found there, which is formed when water mixes with C02. Also, I doubt a body of water could exist on Mars with an atmospheric pressure that is 0.6% of Earth's and gravity at around 40% that of Earth.

I believe the Moon should be the testing ground for manned space habitation because it is closer and less costly to travel to. With the money that has been spent on the useless space shuttle program, except for maybe defense purposes, a moon colony could be well underway today.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: luthier

I have to admit that kind of amazes me as well. Sometimes I just sit out in my shop, looking around at all the equipment and tools I use to make things, and wonder at how many years we spent just trying to get to this point.

Then I think about where we'll be in 100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years... technology is exponential, not linear. It probably took less time to go from the iron age to carbon fiber as it probably did to go from the stone age to the bronze age. I can't even comprehend what will be possible then, and I'm a research engineer! It's my job to make the impossible possible!

TheRedneck

Or extrapolate further. If you could take a team of 100 modern men back 200k years could you teach a society to make a Chevy factory?

I think about this every time I am cooking. How long did it take to aquire the knowledge to get all these materials that won't kill me when I put them in the pot. In 100 years that knowledge will be 3d printers or matter replicator.

My back round many years ago is philosophy with a special interest in cosmology. So stating interested in the last 30 years has kept me looking at how many theories are being hashed out and are true or false.

Knowledge is the key...everything already exists (sort of).

Crazy.

a reply to: eManym

I still hold out some hope of eventually terraforming Venus. Right now it is a pure hell-hole, but there are theories as to how it could be transformed into a slightly warmer earth in under 100 years.

Outside of that... yeah, extra-solar is the only thing we have to work on right now.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: eManym
Manned space flight? I am all for it. There are no planets in the solar system, as it is today, that have the capability of sustaining human life without dependence on resources sent from Earth. Scientist should continue with their extra solar planet search then send high speed probes to the most likely candidates.

I have read that some scientist consider terra-forming Mars as a possibility. In my opinion this is not possible because Mars's mass will only support a heavy gas like C02 and as far as water, there has never been any carbonic acid found there, which is formed when water mixes with C02. Also, I doubt a body of water could exist on Mars with an atmospheric pressure that is 0.6% of Earth's and gravity at around 40% that of Earth.

I believe the Moon should be the testing ground for manned space habitation because it is closer and less costly to travel to. With the money that has been spent on the useless space shuttle program, except for maybe defense purposes, a moon colony could be well underway today.

Two quick points.

Mining in space the belt for one

And bio and genetic engineering.

Evolution can be expidited.

I look at it more as jump points and manufacturing points in space.

Are we going to live like eden on mars probably not. Could we have underground colonies that manufacture in space and provide jump points to further places?

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Because it is an enormous taxpayer fund that they can use for various Black Ops and D.U.M.B.S., while giving us crappy, cheap C.G.I. in return. The return on investment for TPTB (With our money!) is astounding.