Can Anyone Help Me Understand This About Parkland Shooting

***DISCLAIMER:I put this in US Political Madness for a reason, I would like to keep this civil...no name calling or personal attacks please, just civil debate***

I consider myself to be a conservative libertarian, which means, I do NOT care who you are and what you do, as long as your actions do not hurt others. I feel for the victims and their families. But this is not about the shooting, it is about solutions being proposed. There are the regulars who fall on the left, I hope to hear from you.

First:

One of the first things we are hearing about, is raising the age to buy a firearm until 21. We are told that kids are too emotionally stable, and do not think of the consequences of their actions. They are immature and impulsive. However, We hare being told that these kids are bringing fresh perspective, ideas, and are smarter than us....how can this be when they are incapable of the thought and control so much that we need to raise the legal age for long rifles?

Second:

We are being told we need background checks, comprehensive ones. Never mind that federal law all ready requires background checks and waiting periods.
But wait, it is not fair to those who want to come to the US from an Islamic state that is a known terrorist hotbed. We HAVE to bring them in even if they can't be vetted properly.

So really, I just don't get it:

Kids too dumb to own a gun until 21, but we need to listen to them because they are smart.
We need comprehensive background checks and longer waiting periods, but we need to let all refugees in right now, vetting be damned.

Help me out?

a reply to: theatreboy

Almost ALL of it, from the details of the event, to the political responses to the event are riddled with contradictions and illogical justifications for increased gun control.

That Sheriff (who has scandals surrounding him) was aggressively talking about how "No 18-year old needs a rifle. These are kids we're talking about"

How many law enforcement officers are 18 year olds? How many teens younger than 18 have the courts charged as being adults?

Contradiction, after contradiction, after contradiction. Hypocritical *** holes

Yep. Makes about as much sense as calling certain types of guns, assault weapons. Even if you're just shooting a beer can with a hand gun, that beer can is being assaulted by the bullet.

And sending "immature and impulsive" kids into war....before they're even allowed to legally have a beer.

My understanding is that America is just full of contradictions.

There is nothing one can do to stop a mass killing. People don’t want to hear that, so people are trying to sound smart with answers.

I would add, does this mean the military is only going to accept people 21 and up?

a reply to: theatreboy

the nics system has flaws that need to be addressed and it has passed the house along with national reciprocity.

the "right to bear arms" means what it says bear arms as in carry arms.

not everyone can bear arms and a large percentage of 18-21 yo can not bear arms saftely

simply having a law that says if you are not in the military and under 21 then you need to have training or wait until more mature to bear certain arms.

having a co-signer and military clause will allow for anyone to bear arms regardless of age if they are able.

So really, I just don't get it:

Logic and reason only works when two sides display it.

One side doesn't and clearly stuck using their ID's.

'I want' gun control, ignoring they've already have it.

Until the Ego is engaged Forget it, and that will be never.

a reply to: theatreboy

The answer you are seeking, young padawan, is "Tha Feelz".


Nobody is thinking this through rationally. Nobody is actually looking at the situation in an effort to attempt to understand the reality of it all. They're looking through the rose colored glasses of emotion.

The kid should not have had access to an AR-15. As a result, he committed a crime. A crime that multiple agencies were alerted to well in advance, and more than just a few times.

The kid likely had emotional problems that were noted as well. Problems that needed to be addressed. Instead, apparently he was medicated. Likely we are to find out that he was highly medicated with SSRI's that have proven time and time again that in high doses they tend to make the user feel as if they are in a video game. People are not real, they are instead targets. Targets to be hunted, and shot.

But, no. Instead, CNN is prompting kids. Wasn't Soros supposedly funding a rally by them as well? Also, who is paying for all of the travel expenses for the children to get to DC? The children are getting attention, and feeling heard.

So they're ramping it up. Thank you social media. Thank you BLM, Antifa, and every other self proclaimed victim group that is taking to their soapboxes.

Logic, and rational thinking..... screw that.... self thinking.... is dead.


Embrace our new Overlord. Embrace "Tha Feelz".

a reply to: theatreboy

Kids too dumb to own a gun until 21, but we need to listen to them because they are smart.

Seems you may have fallen victim to the two faced media.

Oh, and hey.....

Let's not forget violence in Video Games and Hollywood.

They need to be burned at the stake for the culpable witches that they are.

After all, it's never the fault of the individual. It's never the fault of those that truly fanned the flames.


Apparently, it's always the fault of an entity/thing that certain power groups want demonized and eliminated.

We will never get a 100% satisfactorily answer about gun control or allow people to have guns. YES, we need gun control and YES, we need people to be able to defend themselves.
No matter how many laws or regulations about guns are or will be made, if someone already made out his mind to do such thing, it will find a gun somewhere.

There's nothing to understand. The people that are arguing back and forth don't even understand what they're arguing about.

Basically, it boils down to this:

Humans = good, loving, caring, nothing but rainbows and unicorns.
Guns = bad, kill, pew pew, evil, dead babies.

We seem to be going through this humanitarian movement that is based in stupidity

a reply to: theatreboy

I can't help you out because you are citing the absolute hypocrisy that exists on the left in these issues.

The reality is that these kids are emotionally compromised (that's not an insult, it's just the reality) and are not using either logic or a complete understanding of the issue while they are arguing that they're smarter than adults who 'are refusing to act.'

Have these kids ever thought that there might be a reason for not reacting the way that they prescribe that we do? I mean, that kid who everyone keeps calling an actor has publicly called for kids to boycott the state of Florida until they pass gun control measures. Come on, kid...

I'm fine with comprehensive background checks--what I'm not fine with is giving the power over to doctors to declare people incapable of owning firearms or using their notes or diagnosis to block someone. That is why we have the courts, and that is why the background check requires court adjudication of mental problems before blocking someone from their constitutional rights.

It's not a perfect system, but relying on doctors who may or may not have a personal agenda and are making often subjective determinations is not the proper way to remove someone's rights.

a reply to: dothedew

Humans = good, loving, caring, nothing but rainbows and unicorns.
Guns = bad, kill, pew pew, evil, dead babies.

I think you got one part wrong.

Humans = good, loving, caring, nothing but rainbows and unicorns - and 60 million dead babies since Roe Vs. Wade.

Guns = bad, kill, pew pew, evil.

With that being said? The kids they couldn't kill in the womb? They're brainwashing with terror.

Seriously - when these kids can vote - this next generation? Who do you think they're going to vote for?

Democrats and No guns.

That's the bottom line - nothing else.

The only guns kids should have access to are computer generated ones in COD, and HALO, or Grand Theft Auto!

They are not kids when they go and fight wars none us of want though.

a reply to: theatreboy



What you see going on with the idiotic reactions to the massacre is a more-or-less Usual.... Just like on a construction worksite when the Boss is close-by....

the word goes out "Fire-in-the-hole" which is code for --> Everybody look busy, even if it is stupid...

....but in this case we Have the Boss himself (Trump) offering the 'must-be-21' year-old requirement for rifle ownership.



the present protocols for semi-automatic & assault weapons is deliberately tangled with loop-holes..to favor the Lawyer Industry with problems to resolve... there will just be more of the same....more ambiguous measures which are fraught with loop-holes and catering to our 'Rights'


there must be made available to ordinary citizens, the weapons that groups like that Florida Sheriffs Department with hand-picked militarized Deputies have at their disposal---

because the populace never can tell just when a group of Militarized Deputies & the Sheriff (5 Star General) will go rogue on the community and ally with other groups like IS or Hamas, Jihadists to force the citizens of a town or municipality to comply or die

originally posted by: theatreboy
Kids too dumb to own a gun until 21, but we need to listen to them because they are smart. We need comprehensive background checks and longer waiting periods, but we need to let all refugees in right now, vetting be damned. Help me out?

People are just looking for solutions, and it probably wouldn't hurt anyone to raise the requirements necessary to obtain a gun. As for refugees, it seems reasonable and fair to not automatically assume that everybody who comes to America is a Scarface-style violent criminal.

That's because when either a kid or refugee goes off and does some kind of violent crime, they're behaving outside the normal curve. They're outliers and very unpredictable, and no amount of vetting or passing weapons laws will entirely eliminate the threat. If they can't get a gun, they'll get a knife or a bomb or just drive their Toyota into a crowd (as we have seen).

People feel like they have to do something to protect themselves and kids, but honestly, life is dangerous and always fatal. You do what you can, but there's ultimately nothing that can be done about the people working outside the statistical standard deviations.

The price of freedom is lives -- their people, our people, random people. A few buffalo get eaten by the crocodiles, but the herd lives on.

I will add some perspective from the other side

originally posted by: theatreboy
First:

One of the first things we are hearing about, is raising the age to buy a firearm until 21. We are told that kids are too emotionally stable, and do not think of the consequences of their actions. They are immature and impulsive. However, We hare being told that these kids are bringing fresh perspective, ideas, and are smarter than us....how can this be when they are incapable of the thought and control so much that we need to raise the legal age for long rifles?

I believe you are conflating several arguments and treating them as one.

The "no firearms till 21" is an attempt to control the number of firearms in circulation. A family could buy a hunting rifle and let someone under 21 use it for hunting, but the person under 21 couldn't buy one. I saw a video from a local news crew that showed a kid of 13 buying a long gun of some sort from a private seller at a gun show. (here's the video)

The age range has very little to do with thought processes. Kids are humans. We have kids who are very emotionally savvy and very sophisticated in their thinking at fairly young ages (you should have met my kids at age 11) - and we have adults that you wouldn't let play with a sharp stick.

Second:

We are being told we need background checks, comprehensive ones. Never mind that federal law all ready requires background checks and waiting periods.
But wait, it is not fair to those who want to come to the US from an Islamic state that is a known terrorist hotbed. We HAVE to bring them in even if they can't be vetted properly.

Again, a conflation of two issues.

Right now, emotionally troubled people can buy guns (see news story Trump overturns gun restrictions for mental health regulations ) Someone convicted of domestic abuse can have guns -
a point of contention in Missouri... that may be kept in favor of the abusers

Kids can buy and handle guns at gun shows without a background check. Boyfriends (but not husbands) who are domestic abusers can buy guns - you may not find this particularly scary, but there's an awful lot of women shot to death by abusive boyfriends.

Also of concern - states AND the military are not always very good about sharing data when someone's restricted from buying guns. This data exchange needs to be improved.

Illegal immigrants can not legally buy guns - though as we have seen, private sellers do not follow this rule.

Here (from the page of a gun owner, I believe) is a nice list of the gun rights for legal immigrants in the US. I am not sure how current this is but as you can see there are some variations and the governing body in control is the state.

The number of immigrants committing crimes with guns is actually very small compared to the number of citizens committing crimes. You could bar every single immigrant from ever having guns and it wouldn't make much of an impact. (some data on this, which may be cross-checked with sources that you prefer)

It's a shame you're so fearful of Muslims. There are many Muslim citizens whose families have been here in the United States (as Muslims) for a hundred years and more. We have Muslims who are members of ATS.

The ones you should be concerned about are NOT members of an ethnicity or religion, but people with anger control issues who use violence as a solution for their problems and who have quick access to guns.

Hope this makes things clearer.

a reply to: dothedew

Well said, my friend.... well said.

a reply to: silo13

Oh good lord... "But, the children! What about the Children!!!"


Give it a rest. And, btw, the "Lord" I was referring to is myself, not some cloud shrouded omniscient troll that created everything, including marijuana and poppies, but those (and guns, which he/she/it made us capable of making) are BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!