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how do you all feel about whitewashing?
page: 3share:
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I find it silly because it distorts the vision of an author for racist reasons.
the author's original version stands. it is not distorted.
a new version is a new version. it is not beholden to every single word of the previous version.
that is storytelling.
a reply to: fiverx313
It's racist story telling. In my opinion, I don't think a story should be altered for reasons of race and identity politics, to serve the interests of this or that race.
the author's original version stands. it is not distorted.
a new version is a new version. it is not beholden to every single word of the previous version.
that is storytelling.
It's racist story telling. In my opinion, I don't think a story should be altered for reasons of race and identity politics, to serve the interests of this or that race.
a reply to: fiverx313
But your argument very much is based on racial reasons.
POC can rewrite any stories they want and whitewash the characters to suite themselves because all of the surrounding culture they are immersed in is so terribly oppressive because it has been written by straight white men for straight white men (this is critical race theory and intersectionalism at work), so instead of writing stories about themselves for themselves, you feel that it's fair to take those stories and rewrite them to more or less erase that surrounding culture by whitewashing it out of existence. After all, as you say, culture and stories evolve over time.
However, the straight white men are not allowed to do this with the stories and narratives of the other cultures because they've written so many of their own stories and narratives ... which you have just admitted can now freely be rewritten and whitewashed into those other cultures so erase the evil influence of all those straight white man stories.
That's the essence of the argument you have made over the course of your posts.
It presents an enormous double standard.
It means Hamilton can exist, but a white man could never, ever presume to do the same sort of retelling to something like Roots.
But your argument very much is based on racial reasons.
POC can rewrite any stories they want and whitewash the characters to suite themselves because all of the surrounding culture they are immersed in is so terribly oppressive because it has been written by straight white men for straight white men (this is critical race theory and intersectionalism at work), so instead of writing stories about themselves for themselves, you feel that it's fair to take those stories and rewrite them to more or less erase that surrounding culture by whitewashing it out of existence. After all, as you say, culture and stories evolve over time.
However, the straight white men are not allowed to do this with the stories and narratives of the other cultures because they've written so many of their own stories and narratives ... which you have just admitted can now freely be rewritten and whitewashed into those other cultures so erase the evil influence of all those straight white man stories.
That's the essence of the argument you have made over the course of your posts.
It presents an enormous double standard.
It means Hamilton can exist, but a white man could never, ever presume to do the same sort of retelling to something like Roots.
Let the people tell their own story. We don't need washing or any other form of mastication to make a more thrilling tale. What margin are we measured
and to whom's scale? Keep it organic. And no, it's not racist what I'm implying. We are mosaic differently and yet human. But enough all #ing ready
with impulse to white wash anything. Imagine the bitch fits if Ruth Negga played Queen Elizabeth. Wake up. Seriously
White people play Indians in movies once in a while. Latinas are white most times, depending where they are from.
No issue here. It is acting, not reality.
No issue here. It is acting, not reality.
a reply to: TinySickTears
Is it a big deal?
In the grand scheme of things? No. People should be more concerned that they have ineffective and malignant people in their governments, more concerned that poverty is inevitable in a top heavy economy and concerned about what that really means for those at the bottom, more concerned with trying to prop up failing bee populations.
But in the specific case of the film industry, in a very localised context, yes it is a big deal. Its a big deal for a number of reasons. Actors playing parts have always adopted roles which their actual lives have not prepared them for. Since Shakespeare's day in fact, if not longer. Men or boys playing women was not at all uncommon, and of course, many of his plays were set in nations other than England, which meant that the stable of players he had available to put on stage, would ALWAYS be from realms other than those being depicted.
This continued up until the end of the era in which "black face" was considered appropriate as a source of entertainment.
Breakfast At Tiffany's featured, among other, far more stellar castings, Mickey Rooney as a Japanese photographer, Mr Yunioshi, gave what is described today as a "cringe-worthy portrayal", despite having no intention of causing offence.
Up until relatively recently in the history of western produced film and drama, a stable of actors from backgrounds other than some variation on "white", was just not as readily available as would be necessary, to make it possible for characters from different backgrounds, to be depicted by persons who have a cultural or national similarity to them. And up until relatively recently (I say relatively, because history has been a long time in the making), it must also be said that the nation from which much of the film and theatre the world has fawned over, has been America, a nation in which it was only acceptable to even BE from a minority background, after the sixties were well and truly done with, and many people had died at the hands of bigots, racists and other bastards.
So we have really had less than a century in which the dramatic arts were being fostered with the support of big studios at least, amongst persons from minority backgrounds, either in America, or elsewhere (of course, most nations have their own theatre traditions, regardless of where on the face of Earth they happen to be, but the point is that the film INDUSTRY was not supportive of any but the European and American traditions for most of the history of Hollywood).
Now, heres the thing. When I see a movie with some American or British actor, playing the part of someone who is clearly supposed to be from a very different background than their own, the actor must be superb, absolutely breathtaking in their skill, be perfectly adapted to the role. Method actors, for example, have the ability to literally become the character for the duration of the role, and in my view, only a method actor or actress should ever be placed in the position, of having to portray someone from totally outside their ethnicity.
I have seen older movies before now, which have featured mere pastiche and little else, when it comes to portrayal of persons foreign to the actor involved in depicting them. You sort of forgive the older titles for some of their failings, simply because there were different social mores operating at the time, meaning that within a certain degree of acceptability, the odd faux pas here and there has to be given a pass.
But this simply does not wash in a modern movie.
For example, in the Doctor Strange movie, knowing what I know about the comic book it was based on, Tilda Swinton was cast as The Ancient One. I found her presence absolutely startling, jarring even, in the role. They had to re-write the character to make it work, for one thing. To go to that level of effort, purely to shoehorn her in there, suggests to me that for some reason, it was not considered preferable to go with someone more immediately similar to the role, despite the fact that slavish adherence to comic book lore is necessary to appeal to fans of the comic books themselves, which any studio should want. Break immersion even slightly, leave alone with a characters back story having to be altered to go from Tibetan Monk, to Celtic... I don't know, who somehow arrived at what is clearly an Eastern method of practicing "magic" by... we have no idea what route or method...When something like THAT happens, you have to wonder, just what movie casting people will do, to avoid getting things right by doing the easy thing, and following the DAMNED LORE OF THE UNIVERSE BEING DEPICTED!
There were, are, HUNDREDS of actors who could have been much better for the role, more like the comic book, less like some random retcon, made so that a star name that people in the West can pronounce correctly without opening their minds, can be placed on the front cover of the Blue Ray box.
Put another way, let us consider the PERFECT casting of Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in the X-Men movies. Some of those movies were bad, but they were not bad because of anything Jackman did, or because he looked wrong for the part. You look at him, you take one look at any shot of him in those movies, and even if you had only read the comic books, never seen the films, you would know PRECISELY who he was playing, which character you were looking at, even if you only saw still images, with his claws retracted. Every single second of that film series which contained Jackman was improved by the sheer perfection of the casting which lead to his selection for the part. His presence carried a couple of the X-Movies, as far as I am concerned, and made the first Wolverine standalone movie... bearable.
But how ridiculous would it have been to place a woman in the same role, or to throw a curved ball, and make Wolverines character a Japanese fellow who speaks little to no English? Would it have been ridiculous to do it because women are not badass? No. Would it have been ridiculous because the Japanese are not hardcore enough to play Wolverine? Of course not, have you SEEN Japanese film? No, it would be ridiculous because it would be a totally inappropriate casting choice, because the job of a casting director is to ensure that the movie has actors and actresses who are capable visually and technically of appearing as the character they are cast as.
Its actually very simple.
They could have cast Chow Yun Fat, Donnie Yen, they could have asked Jackie Chan, or any one of a hundred names I could read off the back of an action movie box, and any one of them would have been less jarring in the role than Tilda Swinton.
Now, do I think that Catherine Zeta-Jones will be as jarring as Tilda Swinton was? No, not in the least. One Euro influenced ethnic group is very much like another beyond a certain point, in terms of appearance and so on. But do I think I could name a few people who would have been a damned sight better in the role? Sure, absolutely, without a doubt. There are a great many latin laides who could have been MARVELOUS in this role, where Catherine Zeta-Jones will be, at best, on par, which is about as good as she ever got once she left Wales for Hollywood.
Is it a big deal?
In the grand scheme of things? No. People should be more concerned that they have ineffective and malignant people in their governments, more concerned that poverty is inevitable in a top heavy economy and concerned about what that really means for those at the bottom, more concerned with trying to prop up failing bee populations.
But in the specific case of the film industry, in a very localised context, yes it is a big deal. Its a big deal for a number of reasons. Actors playing parts have always adopted roles which their actual lives have not prepared them for. Since Shakespeare's day in fact, if not longer. Men or boys playing women was not at all uncommon, and of course, many of his plays were set in nations other than England, which meant that the stable of players he had available to put on stage, would ALWAYS be from realms other than those being depicted.
This continued up until the end of the era in which "black face" was considered appropriate as a source of entertainment.
Breakfast At Tiffany's featured, among other, far more stellar castings, Mickey Rooney as a Japanese photographer, Mr Yunioshi, gave what is described today as a "cringe-worthy portrayal", despite having no intention of causing offence.
Up until relatively recently in the history of western produced film and drama, a stable of actors from backgrounds other than some variation on "white", was just not as readily available as would be necessary, to make it possible for characters from different backgrounds, to be depicted by persons who have a cultural or national similarity to them. And up until relatively recently (I say relatively, because history has been a long time in the making), it must also be said that the nation from which much of the film and theatre the world has fawned over, has been America, a nation in which it was only acceptable to even BE from a minority background, after the sixties were well and truly done with, and many people had died at the hands of bigots, racists and other bastards.
So we have really had less than a century in which the dramatic arts were being fostered with the support of big studios at least, amongst persons from minority backgrounds, either in America, or elsewhere (of course, most nations have their own theatre traditions, regardless of where on the face of Earth they happen to be, but the point is that the film INDUSTRY was not supportive of any but the European and American traditions for most of the history of Hollywood).
Now, heres the thing. When I see a movie with some American or British actor, playing the part of someone who is clearly supposed to be from a very different background than their own, the actor must be superb, absolutely breathtaking in their skill, be perfectly adapted to the role. Method actors, for example, have the ability to literally become the character for the duration of the role, and in my view, only a method actor or actress should ever be placed in the position, of having to portray someone from totally outside their ethnicity.
I have seen older movies before now, which have featured mere pastiche and little else, when it comes to portrayal of persons foreign to the actor involved in depicting them. You sort of forgive the older titles for some of their failings, simply because there were different social mores operating at the time, meaning that within a certain degree of acceptability, the odd faux pas here and there has to be given a pass.
But this simply does not wash in a modern movie.
For example, in the Doctor Strange movie, knowing what I know about the comic book it was based on, Tilda Swinton was cast as The Ancient One. I found her presence absolutely startling, jarring even, in the role. They had to re-write the character to make it work, for one thing. To go to that level of effort, purely to shoehorn her in there, suggests to me that for some reason, it was not considered preferable to go with someone more immediately similar to the role, despite the fact that slavish adherence to comic book lore is necessary to appeal to fans of the comic books themselves, which any studio should want. Break immersion even slightly, leave alone with a characters back story having to be altered to go from Tibetan Monk, to Celtic... I don't know, who somehow arrived at what is clearly an Eastern method of practicing "magic" by... we have no idea what route or method...When something like THAT happens, you have to wonder, just what movie casting people will do, to avoid getting things right by doing the easy thing, and following the DAMNED LORE OF THE UNIVERSE BEING DEPICTED!
There were, are, HUNDREDS of actors who could have been much better for the role, more like the comic book, less like some random retcon, made so that a star name that people in the West can pronounce correctly without opening their minds, can be placed on the front cover of the Blue Ray box.
Put another way, let us consider the PERFECT casting of Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in the X-Men movies. Some of those movies were bad, but they were not bad because of anything Jackman did, or because he looked wrong for the part. You look at him, you take one look at any shot of him in those movies, and even if you had only read the comic books, never seen the films, you would know PRECISELY who he was playing, which character you were looking at, even if you only saw still images, with his claws retracted. Every single second of that film series which contained Jackman was improved by the sheer perfection of the casting which lead to his selection for the part. His presence carried a couple of the X-Movies, as far as I am concerned, and made the first Wolverine standalone movie... bearable.
But how ridiculous would it have been to place a woman in the same role, or to throw a curved ball, and make Wolverines character a Japanese fellow who speaks little to no English? Would it have been ridiculous to do it because women are not badass? No. Would it have been ridiculous because the Japanese are not hardcore enough to play Wolverine? Of course not, have you SEEN Japanese film? No, it would be ridiculous because it would be a totally inappropriate casting choice, because the job of a casting director is to ensure that the movie has actors and actresses who are capable visually and technically of appearing as the character they are cast as.
Its actually very simple.
They could have cast Chow Yun Fat, Donnie Yen, they could have asked Jackie Chan, or any one of a hundred names I could read off the back of an action movie box, and any one of them would have been less jarring in the role than Tilda Swinton.
Now, do I think that Catherine Zeta-Jones will be as jarring as Tilda Swinton was? No, not in the least. One Euro influenced ethnic group is very much like another beyond a certain point, in terms of appearance and so on. But do I think I could name a few people who would have been a damned sight better in the role? Sure, absolutely, without a doubt. There are a great many latin laides who could have been MARVELOUS in this role, where Catherine Zeta-Jones will be, at best, on par, which is about as good as she ever got once she left Wales for Hollywood.
a reply to: TrueBrit
With Doctor Strange, the official explanation of what happened with the Ancient One had nothing to do with the actor in the role and everything to do with the original character.
The Ancient One is Tibetan in the comics, and in order to make the movie marketable in China ... the writers felt they had to change that. You could not have a Tibetan character in there. Now, you can disagree with that all you want, but in that case, even having a Tibetan character played by Chinese actors wasn't going to fly.
So they changed the entire character. Now, we can argue about whether or not they should have changed it from TIbetan to Chinese and *then* cast a Chinese actor, but I am betting they decided to side-step the whole Tibet/China thing entirely by simply writing a Celtic Ancient One.
With Doctor Strange, the official explanation of what happened with the Ancient One had nothing to do with the actor in the role and everything to do with the original character.
The Ancient One is Tibetan in the comics, and in order to make the movie marketable in China ... the writers felt they had to change that. You could not have a Tibetan character in there. Now, you can disagree with that all you want, but in that case, even having a Tibetan character played by Chinese actors wasn't going to fly.
So they changed the entire character. Now, we can argue about whether or not they should have changed it from TIbetan to Chinese and *then* cast a Chinese actor, but I am betting they decided to side-step the whole Tibet/China thing entirely by simply writing a Celtic Ancient One.
Zoe Saldana played a Colombian woman in Colombiana. She is Puerto Rican, Dominican, Haitan and Lebanese. But no Colombian. I never watched it. I
thought it was dumb at the time, but not enough to really care.
There are plenty of actresses from Colombia, they just are not connected to Hollywood I think, or Speak English.
The only Colombian I am even aware of in Hollywood is John Liguezamo. Although his grandpa was Puerto Rican/Italian and his Grandma was Lebanese. Hey, maybe him and Zoe are related through a distant relative lol!
There are plenty of actresses from Colombia, they just are not connected to Hollywood I think, or Speak English.
The only Colombian I am even aware of in Hollywood is John Liguezamo. Although his grandpa was Puerto Rican/Italian and his Grandma was Lebanese. Hey, maybe him and Zoe are related through a distant relative lol!
a reply to: TinySickTears
Yul Brynner a Russian born American playing Ramses &
Charlton Heston an American playing a Jewish Moses in The Ten Commandments (1956)
How outrageous was that?
Heston also played El Cid, a Spaniard!
I'm outraged!
Its good that the Apes fixed up Heston in the Planet Of The Apes!
Yul Brynner a Russian born American playing Ramses &
Charlton Heston an American playing a Jewish Moses in The Ten Commandments (1956)
How outrageous was that?
Heston also played El Cid, a Spaniard!
I'm outraged!
Its good that the Apes fixed up Heston in the Planet Of The Apes!
a reply to: TinySickTears
This is interesting - that link died - and now I notice that sexual harassment allegations are out against Michael Douglas.
22 Jan 2018
www.digitalspy.com...
more lurid details about the allegations on that page
This is interesting - that link died - and now I notice that sexual harassment allegations are out against Michael Douglas.
22 Jan 2018
www.digitalspy.com...
Catherine Zeta-Jones has defended her husband Michael Douglas after he pre-empted allegations of sexual harassment made against him by a former employee. Douglas issued a statement a week before the allegations were made public denying sexual misconduct and the clam that he had "blacklisted" complainant Susan Braudy.
Speaking on The View, Douglas's wife explained why her husband spoke up before the accusations were actually published. "He had to come out preemptively because of what he believes in," Zeta-Jones told the panel of Joy Behar, Sunny Hostin, Meghan McCain and Yvette Nicole Brown.
more lurid details about the allegations on that page
a reply to: fiverx313
Who are you addressing? What point is there to make or unmake.
These are movies. Casting actors that draw the crowds that finance the movies makes sense, no?
i think citing examples from 20, 30, and 50 years ago and how it was fine then it perhaps not the best way to make your point.
Who are you addressing? What point is there to make or unmake.
These are movies. Casting actors that draw the crowds that finance the movies makes sense, no?
a reply to: fiverx313
Jordan Peterson, Professor of Psychology, answer to you
Jordan Peterson, Professor of Psychology, answer to you
the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constutent elements of that group theres nothing more racist than that
a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Bingo
In this screwed world why should a long dead author get any say? Why should we have to read and understand the story in the milleu it was written.
Lets all sing kumbaya every time literature is rewritten from the eyes of the censor.
Bingo
In this screwed world why should a long dead author get any say? Why should we have to read and understand the story in the milleu it was written.
Lets all sing kumbaya every time literature is rewritten from the eyes of the censor.
originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
Political revisions, right?
And you cant see anything wrong with that?
George Orwells Newspeak comes to mind.
not always political, and nobody burned the old stories... so not really.
This breaks my heart. Perhaps the point. When will everyone be genuinely free. Im serious. Just. Think
a reply to: ketsuko
I see what you are saying about it, and I am aware of the Tibetan issue...
The only problem with the whole approach, is that it really does not matter what China thinks of it. The studio, the producers, the publishers, should have been more focused on faithful recreation of the comic book original, than they ever should have been on making nice for the Chinese market. Even China knows its out of line regarding its attitude toward Tibet, and its time the worlds entertainment industry stopped tip toeing around the issue, if you ask me.
The point is, films like this are for the fans, and the fans want things "just so". If the industry is NOT providing fan service, they may as well wrap it up with the whole comic book movies thing entirely, because those films NEED to be for the comic book fans first, and every other sucker afterward. Without us, the films would not be being made at all, so its pretty important to follow the core audience, and let everyone else get on or off the bandwagon as they see fit along the way.
I see what you are saying about it, and I am aware of the Tibetan issue...
The only problem with the whole approach, is that it really does not matter what China thinks of it. The studio, the producers, the publishers, should have been more focused on faithful recreation of the comic book original, than they ever should have been on making nice for the Chinese market. Even China knows its out of line regarding its attitude toward Tibet, and its time the worlds entertainment industry stopped tip toeing around the issue, if you ask me.
The point is, films like this are for the fans, and the fans want things "just so". If the industry is NOT providing fan service, they may as well wrap it up with the whole comic book movies thing entirely, because those films NEED to be for the comic book fans first, and every other sucker afterward. Without us, the films would not be being made at all, so its pretty important to follow the core audience, and let everyone else get on or off the bandwagon as they see fit along the way.
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