The Existence of Free Will

a reply to: Abednego

If everything is known, past, present and future, by the architect of the system, then the plot has already been written, any change would create a situation, unknown to the architect, which is apparently not allowed. So all God needs is souls attached to meat puppets that observe, read witness, His creation. We don't play an active role in the way the system works any more than characters reading their assigned lines in a play or movie have creative control. We have our parts, we ride singular in our controlled individual busses. This creates an additional issue, since I posit there is no free will and the universe is deterministic, there can be no sin, because there is no free will. Any "sin" committed is part of the plot of your "character" within this construct and under the control of the system's architect. Something else to chew on :-)

Haven't you noticed that regardless of religion, politics or business, which follow the plot, they always say one thing and do the opposite. This construct is a very confusing "place."

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: zosimov

It's not a semantic problem, it's a paradox. You have a piece of granite, it's been made a certain way, if the individual molecules had sentience, could they move on their own and change the granite? It's highly improbable because the way molecules work is defined by both classical and quantum mechanics. They are chained to lattices and there are bonds that generally are not spontaneously broken. Matter is a little bit different from vacuum space.

In the same vein, let's say I had a glass of water with a constant source of heat under it and no other external energy sources, a closed system if you like. Now let's say I had a computer with a sufficiently large data acquisition system that could monitor every atomic particle interaction in that closed system. So I write a program that can analyse all the interactions and determine the starting location of every particle. By extension, I would know how the interactions work and the energy levels applied, I should be able to write a program that would tell me where any or all particles would be located in the glass of water billions of years from now or in there final location. Of course, knowing the beginning and the end, however convoluted a path, it would be predictable. Predestination and deterministic when it comes to a system are the same thing, you don't have to interfere in the system to control it. The initial expression of the system determines the final expression.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle


I don't see any paradox in an omniscient being knowing the outcome of an action without having caused it. How does foreknowledge preclude choice? If I were to give my son the choice of any food item in the store, yet knew ahead of time that he would pick his favorite, what bearing would my prescience have had on his choice?

Your examples might be factually correct, but I don't yet see how they pertain to the argument.

People react to similar input (trauma for example) in drastically different ways, unlike water particles reacting to heat. I don't think the analogy fits.


Also, Cheers to you too!

well not I dont what would be so hard to understand we are both free will and subject to controls .
Free will says we can Hunt when we wish Hunger says NOW .

the Sud mind is a mix of genes learning and any damage to the mind .
Little dout to me we are born predisposed to act in some ways .
Funny thing was I believe that who we are is 90 % environment .
When my 3rd born child came along it was like looking in a mirror even to the extent of at 5 the desire to under stand how it works ( aka taking stuff apart ( vcr ) to see what was inside .
For me it has never been enough knowing it works I need to understand how it works the same was my 3rd son .

having said all this the longer you live the more the environment effects how you thing and act at 52 my world view has changed so much there is little left of the young man .

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle


Haven't you noticed that regardless of religion, politics or business, which follow the plot, they always say one thing and do the opposite. This construct is a very confusing "place."

I think I understand what you mean here- calling pretty much everyone a hypocrite, right? Or did I misunderstand your point?

I think there are some really admirable, loving people out there living as close to the Christ consciousness as possible... that is not me, but doesn't mean I shouldn't try.

Isn't denial of "sin" only abnegation of responsibility? Though the same could be said I suppose about accomplishment (if we had no free will, than no one way of living is preferable to any other.) Meh.

a reply to: zosimov

If an omnipotent being creates a thing, that being has the choice to change to change what it has created. The thing created does not have a choice in changing itself. At least that appears to be the case in a deterministic reality.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: zosimov
Okay, you brought up one of those big questions, predestination vs free will.

... semantic problem with the word predestined, I'd prefer the term foreknown). An omnipotent God could know what choice we are about to make without having any impact on it.

Is Your Future Predestined? Awake!—2009

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Is Your Future Predestined?

Many people believe that their life and future are predestined by a higher power. They feel that from conception to death, we all follow a script already written in the mind of God. ‘After all,’ they say, ‘God is all-powerful and all-knowing, or omniscient, so surely he must know every detail about the past, the present, and the future.’

WHAT do you think? Does God foreordain our life course and ultimate destiny? In other words, is free will genuine or just an illusion? What does the Bible say?

Total or Selective Foreknowledge?

The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows “from the beginning the finale,” says Isaiah 46:10. He even used human secretaries to record many prophecies. (2 Peter 1:21) What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. Hence, God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so. However, does God foreordain the destiny of every human or even the total number who will gain salvation? Not according to the Bible.

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

God’s control of his powers does not limit him or render him imperfect. In fact, it magnifies his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with omniscience and power but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.

On the other hand, if God predetermines everything, including every nasty accident and vile deed that has ever happened, could we not rightly blame him for all the misery and suffering in the world? Thus, upon closer inspection, the teaching of predestination does not honor God, but casts a pall over him. It paints him as cruel, unjust, and unloving—the very opposite of what the Bible says about him.—Deuteronomy 32:4.

The Choice Is Yours

By means of his servant Moses, God said to the nation of Israel: “I have put life and death before you, . . . and you must choose life . . . by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days.” (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Had God predestinated each Israelite either to love him and gain life or to disregard him and merit death, His words would have been both meaningless and insincere. Do you believe that God, “a lover of justice” and the very personification of love, would act in such an arbitrary way?—Psalm 37:28; 1 John 4:8.

God’s appeal to his servants to choose life applies even more so to us today, for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that we are rapidly approaching the end of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:3-9; 2 Timothy 3:1-5) How do we choose life? We do so in essentially the same way as the ancient Israelites did.

How Can You “Choose Life”?

We choose life by “loving Jehovah,” by “listening to his voice,” and by “sticking to him.” Of course, we can only do these things when we know God as a person and understand his requirements for us. In prayer to God, Jesus Christ said: “This is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ.”—Italics ours; John 17:3, Phillips.

That precious knowledge can be found in the pages of the Holy Bible, rightly called the Word of God. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) Indeed, this spiritual gift is a tangible evidence that God has not predestined our future but wants us to make informed choices based on information he has provided.—Isaiah 48:17, 18.

By means of the Bible, God is, in effect, saying to us: ‘This is my purpose for mankind and the earth, and this is what you should do to gain everlasting life. It is now up to you to decide whether to listen to me or disregard me.’ Yes, how perfectly God balances his powers of foreordination with his respect for our free will! Will you choose life “by listening to [God’s] voice and by sticking to him”?

HAVE YOU WONDERED?

▪ To what extent does God exercise foreknowledge?—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Isaiah 46:10.

▪ Why would God not predetermine everything, including the bad things that happen to people?—Deuteronomy 32:4.

▪ What will ultimately determine our future?—John 17:3.

[Blurb on page 13]

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: zosimov

If an omnipotent being creates a thing, that being has the choice to change to change what it has created. The thing created does not have a choice in changing itself. At least that appears to be the case in a deterministic reality.

Cheers - Dave

If the omniscient being creating the thing were also omnipotent, "He" could create beings capable of changing themselves.


I'm interested to hear your take on the short vid I posted from Michio Kaku, pointing to the Uncertainty Principle.
If we can't even determine the location of a particle at any given time, how can we determine anything having to do with the inner working of the mind? How does deterministic science account for glaring uncertainty?

a reply to: zosimov

Michio is comparing two different types of realities with two different sets of rules and trying to apply one set of rules to the other. Quantum reality has its own subset of rules and conditions that, it has been proven time and again, do not apply to classical reality. As far as Michio's opinion on anything now, I ignore it. Back in the 90's when he was headstrong and wrote hyperspace, he was a totally different person, very intelligent and making a name for himself. I used to argue with him about the merits of particle deceleration as a low energy practical method of subatomic particle manipulation as opposed to large particle accelerators, like CERN. His ideas on a substrate reality or multidimensional foundation were pretty solid. Since the ptb got a hold of him, I only hear the "party line" drop from his lips.

As far as Heisenberg goes, within the construct we are using energy from within the construct to measure energy-based particles within the construct. Makes a lot of sense lol, but it's all we have for tools. Of course one energy system used to measure another energy system is going to produce questionable results. However, if a being were outside the system operating with a different kind of "energy" maybe there would be no "uncertainty" in measurement interactions. It's like the concepts of both Newtonian time (absolute) time frames and Einsteinian time (relativistic) time frames. The big lie there, is they are both correct, but part of the "plot" in this construct is to maintain the lie until it requires no more maintenance.

As far as your omniscient/omnipotent being, if said being created and put a construct in motion, they would by virtue of their powers have to know the complete construct over all time. If I make a movie, I know the position and actions of every character and item in the movie and I can pick any point in time from which to view the movie. Since I created the movie, in regards to watching, I have control, not the characters who are simply playing parts or the items used as props. If I watch someone else's movie, there is an element of uncertainty that could be "expressed" as free will, but only if I didn't know it was a movie and rather some "reality" show. God or a system architect, would know better, since they know all.

ETA: Here's a simple example, crystalline structures evolve based on their material, and subatomic and molecular bonds. A crystal cannot change its evolution at some point and decide to become a dog. Its evolution is determined by its material content and the rules of the system. Probably not a great example since crystalline structures are apparently non-sentient, but who's to say we are truly sentient? There is it appears, order out of chaos out of structured order (the underlying foundation of the construct). Nothing is serendipitous and there are no accidents, there is simply deterministic evolution of the construct over time.

None of it matters anyway, we have no control over the evolution of the construct. It will progress at the rate defined by the architect. The sheep will still look up, maybe wonder a little and then go back to sleep waiting for their egress from the construct and subsequent re-integration.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Thank you for the interesting and detailed response. My responses in return must be maddening because they dismiss your well stated logic so offhandedly, and for that I sincerely apologize.

What you wrote seems factually solid, and I enjoyed reading your argument (until the sheep part- I don't have such a contempt for fellow man, but to be fair, in a deterministic construct you could not help but be so).

The only problem I have is that the architect is the creator of rules, and therefore needn't abide by the rules the scientific community would hold him to.

And science is a work in progress as well, we have hardly reached the end of our scientific knowledge/abilities, have we?

I appreciate the debate! And suppose could not have done or said otherwise, as this conversation (in a deterministic world) was ordained from the very beginning. Which makes it a rather important one, I suppose.

a reply to: zosimov

The only reason I use sheep, is because they are a passive herd animal that readily follow peer actions, but there are always some rebels thrown in lol. It seems analogous to the conditions of this construct. As far as a creator following the rules for the construct they create, well, of course, if they want to maintain a purely deterministic "reality." There may be other variations of "reality" constructs that range from totally chaotic to degrees of chaos and semi-determinism to fully deterministic. Anything is possible from a vantage point outside of the construct, there are just levels of probability on the inside.

As I said before, I see this as more a prison than a ride or educational/retraining tool. A construct to occupy your "real" mind. An infinite journey towards an end we cannot really comprehend and a purpose we cannot divine. I imagine we'll find out in the time between the next cycle, but maybe not. Maybe our death/egress from the construct is an immediate transition to the next birth/injection. Who knows for sure.......?

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: zosimov

The only reason I use sheep, is because they are a passive herd animal that readily follow peer actions, but there are always some rebels thrown in lol.

Okay, this is funny. I am so sorry I misinterpreted your remark.

Thank you again for your time and perspective. Your ideas about consciousness are interesting and I very much enjoy considering theories which differ from mine.

Found this especially intriguing

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: zosimov



A construct to occupy your "real" mind. An infinite journey towards an end we cannot really comprehend and a purpose we cannot divine. I imagine we'll find out in the time between the next cycle, but maybe not. Maybe our death/egress from the construct is an immediate transition to the next birth/injection. Who knows for sure.......?

a reply to: zosimov

While watching a live podcast two things came into my mind at the same time about us ,God and free will . Would not "Suicide" , tell us we are free will agents ?

a reply to: bobs_uruncle



Do you know your past? yes. Do you know your present? yes. Do you know your future? Yes, based on past decision you may be able to guess what may happen. But still is undetermined.
We decide where we want to be.
Free will exist. Most people do not really understand it Me included. I'm just scratching the surface.

This is a good discussion about free will ... in short if it didn't exist then we would have to create it just to become a society .

Thanks to each poster for contributing to a really interesting discussion!

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
This is a good discussion about free will ... in short if it didn't exist then we would have to create it just to become a society

Looking forward to watching this. I'll let you know what I think!

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: bobs_uruncle



Do you know your past? yes. Do you know your present? yes. Do you know your future? Yes, based on past decision you may be able to guess what may happen. But still is undetermined.
We decide where we want to be.
Free will exist. Most people do not really understand it Me included. I'm just scratching the surface.

LOL. How can you know what is going to happen in the future, unless you have access to tools outside the system. Granted, on occasion we might have one or two prescient individuals placed every few hundred years, but by and large, their accuracy is even low. We live in a deterministic construct, observe and enjoy the scenery, the train leaves after death and you get to do it all again :-)

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

With the right tools and the correct use of them you can have access. Like I said, I'm just scratching the surface.

And yes, the train leaves after death and I get to do it all again. But if you work hard enough you may get the ability to be aware of that, giving you the opportunity to change.


And yes there are tools out there. But is up to you to find them.

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

With the right tools and the correct use of them you can have access. Like I said, I'm just scratching the surface.

And yes, the train leaves after death and I get to do it all again. But if you work hard enough you may get the ability to be aware of that, giving you the opportunity to change.


And yes there are tools out there. But is up to you to find them.

Well, go use the tools and tell us what the next false flag op will be. While you're at it, I could use the winning lottery numbers for next four weeks of Max, 6/49 and the new York lottery, mmmmkay :-) My spreadsheet analysis is giving me the numbers, but I can't seem to get them all on one ticket.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle


To predict and to see the future are two different things. And if I really could see the future, I will not share my fortune with you.

Cheers - :.