The God of Judgment Versus the God of Unconditional Love

The God of Judgment:

I walked into the gym for CYO basketball practice the other day and the nun starts yelling at me. I was there for 30 seconds but she was convinced I was doing something wrong. Every time I go the church gym for practice she starts yelling at me something. She is convinced I was being sinful by not following the rules. I don't think she likes me.

Follow the rules, get in line, listen to authority. Original sin, unoriginal sin, it doesn't matter. Just get in line, follow the rules, or your soul will be judged! Maybe you are good person deep down, but on the surface you are a sinner who needs to be punished. Stop talking. Listen to authority. Stop thinking for yourself! Only people possessed by Satan think for themselves. The last thing you ever want is to be dubbed, "not with Jesus" or "not with God". A good person never questions authority. A good person just shuts up and listens to authority. It is man's natural state to be submissive. Especially to the Lord, Jesus Christ. You cannot have the word lord have any meaning without the word slaves. Lords have slaves. That's what it means to be a lord. But stop thinking about the meaning of words and just listen to authority. Obey, conform, and say the magic words of submission to the Lord. Don't think. Obey! We are all mindless soldiers.

The God of Unconditional Love:

Based on human experiments, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order preserve our free-will. God is pro-choice in accepting of all our behaviors. It appears our omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us and just does not care how we treat each other. And if we crap in our own beds, or treat each other badly, God just sit's back and lets us kill each other without stepping in. I don't think God is that much concerned about sin otherwise he would have prevented the bombing of Dresden in WWII. But as far as I can tell, even if he did, there are thousands of other times when unnecessary evil goes unchallenged. Not that I am judging God. I'm just saying God does not seem to be getting involved in policing the choices man makes.

What is also jaw dropping and stunning is how relentless nature is in carrying out the laws of physics exactly the same way every time. Every time I drop a ball it hits the ground. Every time! It seems our creator God created the Universe, set it in motion, and doesn't appear to be actively participating in the affairs of man. As far as I can tell, God is not popping in and out of the clouds yelling instructions at people on how to behave better.

So which one is right an why?

I think the God of Judgment was created by man. I think the God of Judgment is really men pretending to be God by judging other people and manipulating them for power and control. I think most people behave morally. The golden rule, empathy for others, and not being a psychopath means most people do not sin that much. The threat of eternal damnation really doesn't matter to good people who would behave in good ways regardless of the threat. And people who behave really badly probably do not even care about eternal damnation. Or even worse, really bad people are probably encouraged by the threat of eternal damnation to behave even more badly. I think most good people in the church put up with being judged because they do not want to be impolite in defending their own goodness. Or they may second guess their own goodness and badness after years of being conditioned to always listening to authority over their own inner voice.

Everyone is saved!

I think the God of unconditional love is a more accurate representation of how God behaves. God is pro-choice. Nature is relentless. And an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. Take all those together and here is what I believe an a God of unconditional love would be like in terms of salvation. After we die, a God of unconditional love would allow everything through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. Sins are conditions of love. A God of unconditional love would love each of us regardless of our sins. A creator God would love every piece of his creation equally because as creator, He is responsible for everything in His creation.

In terms of morality, to be closer to a creator God of unconditional love, then every person you meet you would treat as the most sacred and divine object on Earth. To be like a God of unconditional love, you would be loving and accepting of everyone you meet regardless of their bad behaviors. This doesn't mean you do not have boundaries in relationships. It's just means you stop judging people as not being worthy of love.

So good people, which God is right? Which God is more powerful? Is having faith in a God of unconditional love enough to get you through the gates to experience the prize of eternal heavenly bliss?

Let's rework your arguments only instead of God, let's think of this as parents.

Which set of parents would you rather were raising children to interact with you and the rest of society as a whole?

The parent who teaches their children actively a set of moral rule for right and wrong and judges when they behave rightly and wrongly, or the parents who allow their children to go however they like and then love them no matter how horrible they are, giving them whatever makes them act happy at the end of the day?

If you do not believe that rapists, paedophiles and child abusers/murderers, who go unpunished in this life, deserve to be judged in a potential hereafter...

Then you are likely morally defunct.
To me, a God of unconditional love would never allow those sorts not to be judged for their actions.

So really, we may have different definitions of what unconditional love constitutes.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Let's rework your arguments only instead of God, let's think of this as parents.

Which set of parents would you rather were raising children to interact with you and the rest of society as a whole?

The parent who teaches their children actively a set of moral rule for right and wrong and judges when they behave rightly and wrongly, or the parents who allow their children to go however they like and then love them no matter how horrible they are, giving them whatever makes them act happy at the end of the day?

You make a very good argument. And parents who don't love their children unconditionally are sometime brutally murdered by them.

I think there's a balance for raising children. As I said, and I will repeat, being like a God of unconditional love doesn't mean you do not have boundaries in relationships. Children need boundaries. Children need to be taught how NOT to be rude. Children need to be taught how to be polite.

Are you suggesting how we teach children is the basis for religion? I think at some point adults do grow up, act maturely, and are more than just children.

I think the God of unconditional love is a more accurate representation of how God behaves. God is pro-choice. Nature is relentless. And an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. Take all those together and here is what I believe an a God of unconditional love would be like in terms of salvation. After we die, a God of unconditional love would allow everything through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. Sins are conditions of love. A God of unconditional love would love each of us regardless of our sins. A creator God would love every piece of his creation equally because as creator, He is responsible for everything in His creation.

So according to your theory Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao deserve to enter paradise despite them being responsible for the death of millions?

originally posted by: IncessantOptimist

I think the God of unconditional love is a more accurate representation of how God behaves. God is pro-choice. Nature is relentless. And an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. Take all those together and here is what I believe an a God of unconditional love would be like in terms of salvation. After we die, a God of unconditional love would allow everything through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. Sins are conditions of love. A God of unconditional love would love each of us regardless of our sins. A creator God would love every piece of his creation equally because as creator, He is responsible for everything in His creation.

So according to your theory Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao deserve to enter paradise despite them being responsible for the death of millions?

That is why Paradise, Heaven, God and Hell don't exist. If there was such a thing as a God then evil people would be dealt with swiftly instead of living long and evil lives!

a reply to: dfnj2015

Nun: "Do what I say or else God will punish you!"

ROFL.

Quick, hit the eject button, run for your life, escape that place as soon as you can find the door.

They are brain washing you with tired and true ancient methods of mind control, just like any military boot camp.

"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" comes from Hammurabi's Steele (as part of the city-state law), like 1000 years before the Old Testament, where the Hebrew's were later enslaved as scribes (about the time they developed the Hebrew language). Meaning for a reformer come and say that was all wrong should have been expected.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Let's rework your arguments only instead of God, let's think of this as parents.

Which set of parents would you rather were raising children to interact with you and the rest of society as a whole?

The parent who teaches their children actively a set of moral rule for right and wrong and judges when they behave rightly and wrongly, or the parents who allow their children to go however they like and then love them no matter how horrible they are, giving them whatever makes them act happy at the end of the day?

Thats even worse than catholic school or boot camp. No shortage of control freaks in the world. Why do you think oppression and suppression is so hated and causes so much tragedy?

Because control freaks never learn.

a reply to: intrptr

WORSHIP ME OR BURN FOR ETERNITY RAWWWRRR!

a reply to: dfnj2015

And at that point, a parent has to let them succeed or fail on their own, but that does not change a parents' standards that were set way back in those formative years ... you know, like certain commandments, nor does it change the established consequences.

If a parent is anything, a parent must be consistent.

So, yes, your children make their own mistakes, yes, you will always love them, and yes, you will always hold them to account for the standards you set for their behavior precisely because you *do* love them. And also because you *do* love them, it is also possible to forgive the child who acknowledges the error of their ways and comes back to you.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: intrptr

WORSHIP ME OR BURN FOR ETERNITY RAWWWRRR!

Those that impose that mental anguish and torture on human psyches are the ones gonna burn.

They will never be allowed to leave this gravity well.

Into the sun.

How can there be love without judgement, your argument is fallacious

When it was clear that my brother-in-law was not going to recover from his brain cancer, I suddenly developed a need to read near-death experiences. I wanted to know what he was going to be facing.

Most of the stories are positive, and suggest the unconditional love God that you mention. People of all different faiths had similar experiences, as well as people who didn't believe in God at all.

Then there are those few people who had terrifying experiences, full of fear and darkness and punishment.

I know that many believe that near-death experiences are just a trick of the brain; having to do with chemicals that the brain releases when the heart and brain stop functioning.

I don't know the answer...I can believe both sides- that it's just a chemical reaction, and that it's a real experience on the spiritual side.

I have wrestled with the topic of your OP my whole life. I still don't know which one is true. Thanks for the topic!

The other thing to consider is this:

Think of the very worst in history, the most unrepentant, the ones who visited immeasurable pain and suffering on those around them without pity or remorse or mercy ...

The God of Unconditional Love you imagine would bring them home too. Most people have enough trouble reconciling the God of Judgment with that when they learn that He forgives. Your God doesn't even need to forgive. He never judged to begin with.

a reply to: IncessantOptimist

Yes. For some people, God is all they have.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
How can there be love without judgement, your argument is fallacious

Maybe your idea of love is not love. I would argue love is more about acceptance than judgment.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Raggedyman
How can there be love without judgement, your argument is fallacious

Maybe your idea of love is not love. I would argue love is more about acceptance than judgment.

So your God is one of murder then?

How is that loving to the victim?

originally posted by: ketsuko
The other thing to consider is this:

Think of the very worst in history, the most unrepentant, the ones who visited immeasurable pain and suffering on those around them without pity or remorse or mercy ...

The God of Unconditional Love you imagine would bring them home too. Most people have enough trouble reconciling the God of Judgment with that when they learn that He forgives. Your God doesn't even need to forgive. He never judged to begin with.

That is exactly what I am saying. People concerned with sin are vindictive or want revenge. Nature is relentlessly consistent. And God doesn't stop unnecessary evil or police people's behaviors. God tolerates evil. An omnipotent God needs nothing from us. So what we do to each other doesn't matter to God. As I said in the OP, what makes people moral has nothing to do with the threat of eternal damnation. People behave morally because they believe in the golden rule, have empathy, and they are not psychopaths. Good people behave morally even without the threat of eternal damnation.

I think the more interesting question, if your faith were in a God of unconditional love, what types of human behavior would be better or worse than other behaviors. I think if you take the idea of we are created in God's image and think of it as a two way relationship, then what is good would be define by what gives us enthusiasm and excitement in participating in our lives. Of course, having respect for other people's enthusiasm has to be part of the equation since we are all sons and daughters of the same creator God. To put it simply, what makes us happy makes God happy as long as it is not at the expense of other people's happiness.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Well if God wants nothing from us, then he doesn't love us either. There is no reason to believe He takes any interest in us at all, including giving us neverending bliss after we die.

Why would He?