Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Akragon

Sorry, your unsubstantiated claims aren't cutting it. Nice try though.

Unsubstantiated?

hardly...

Your trinity is three beings that are equal to one another... and are one... Such a statement doesn't exist anywhere in the bible... there isn't a single line that considers Jesus equal to the Father, or the holy spirit as equal to him

though there are at the very least, three statements in the book of John alone that states that Jesus is less then his Father...

thus he is subordinate... and your trinity is false doctrine

Thought up at the very least 50 some odd years after his death

The word doesn't exist in the bible... Jesus does not recognize any aspect of said triune God, nor do any of this followers...

In fact even when the first ideas of the trinity came about, it wasn't what it is today... said people still recognized the fact that Jesus is subordinate to the Father

The only thing thats unsubstantiated here is your triune god

Though you are free to believe whatever you wish

a reply to: Akragon

Your trinity is three beings that are equal to one another... and are one... Such a statement doesn't exist anywhere in the bible... there isn't a single line that considers Jesus equal to the Father, or the holy spirit as equal to him

Yeah, sure, whatever...

John 5:17-23

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

a reply to: Deetermined

Simple lack of understanding on their part... and yours of course

Theres key phrases and words mostly all Christians conveniently overlook in the gospels... and even in the very passage you quote...

He wasn't making himself equal to God, that is the jews lack of understanding... Calling himself the son of God does not make him equal to God in any way, shape or form... For the Father has no equal, even by Jesus own words

My Father is greater then all...

Notice in the passage you quote he also says... The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do...

Hmm... He can't do anything of himself... sounds pretty equal

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth...

Sounds like a teacher... or even

Matthew 10
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Or how about this

John 13
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Strange that equality isn't even close to something he was talking about... yet you can assume that is what he meant... your entire religion has made that mistake for millennia

Matters not to me though... lets see what else we can find

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Something that was given to him... kinda like, "all power was GIVEN to me on heaven and earth"

No need to give anything to an equal being now is there?

lol... so again, feel free to believe whatever you will...

in any case your trinity is the biggest stumbling block in the history of Christianty

And you all fell for it

a reply to: Akragon

Notice in the passage you quote he also says... The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do...

Hmm... He can't do anything of himself... sounds pretty equal

We've had this discussion several times, but I'll have it again for the sake of others.

Of course Jesus told us that his Father was greater than all. While Jesus was here in the flesh, he was considered lower than the angels, who are spirit. Spirit trumps flesh. Everything Jesus did was accomplished through the spirit of God, which was a part of Him, and also why he told everyone time and time again that Him and God were ONE. Jesus also told Philip that when he saw Him, he had seen the Father.

Hebrews 2:7-9

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

John 14:6-15

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Notice, Jesus did say, keep my Father's commandments. He said, "keep MY commandments".

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus even goes a step further. He tells his disciples that He's the Holy Spirit (Comforter) too.

John 14:16-19

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

So the general premise seems to be obey no matter what the circumstance, imagine that.

What happens when God turns up himself?

Because following that general rule of thumb nobody is going to obey or listen.

Me thinks said control construct has its limitations. LoL

a reply to: Akragon

in any case your trinity is the biggest stumbling block in the history of Christianty

And you all fell for it

LOL! You're hilarious. Christianity is called Christianity because it revolves around Jesus Christ and what He accomplished in order to bring us eternal life. Believing in the Trinity does not create a stumbling block. We have always and will always believe that the way to the Father is through the Son, which is exactly what the Bible tells us over and over again, regardless of whether they are one and the same. Honoring the Son honors the Father also, remember? We have nothing to lose on this one.

a reply to: Akragon

Notice in the passage you quote he also says... The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do...

You are correct in that portion of scripture but you have not completed the entire thought. Jesus said this as He was alive but the Holy Spirit, as the comforter, was not given till after His death.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As you can see, the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth and a spirit entity and was sent after Jesus died. How you accept or reject this is up to you. I don't know what spirit is so in that respect I understand this as being sent by The Most High EL as a substance of some sort. Nothing that exists can be equal or above The Most High EL.

1Corinthians_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In this I am led to believe that the end of all power will be withdrawn from everything that exists, including the Holy Spirit. Till that time, the Holy Spirit is given for a teacher and comforter.

a reply to: Akragon

Notice in the passage you quote he also says... The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do...

None of us does anything except through God.

a reply to: Seede

a reply to: Deetermined

For about 1600 years its been a settled fact... the trinity means equality between all three aspects of this godhead

the Father = the son = the HS

the problem is, again... there is no equality statements within the gospels, but quite the opposite

the idea of equality came with Athanasius, and his crew while dealing with Arius, and solidified within the next few decades...

Sure the aspects of said trinity are mentioned... but equality is not found in any of the statements, and merely mentioning one of two of the three does not mean equality

So sure you can believe that Jesus sent Jesus in Jesus' name as the comforter

And you can believe that Jesus was equal to his Father, even though he state the opposite quite blatantly

You are welcome to follow the words of the men of councils hundreds of years after the fact

Though that isn't what Jesus taught...

The man said his Father is One... and he wasn't his own Father...

and NONE are equal...

so again, believe what you will

a reply to: Akragon

The man said his Father is One... and he wasn't his own Father...

No, Jesus said HE AND HIS FATHER were ONE.

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

That's what Jesus taught, so don't tell us what he did or did not teach, as you've never understood any of it.

a reply to: Akragon

So sure you can believe that Jesus sent Jesus in Jesus' name as the comforter

I will, because that's what the Bible says. While Jesus said that the Father would give them "another", Jesus himself claims that it's his spirit that will be coming to them and abiding in them to remember all things he taught them. The same reason Jesus told his disciples that if they had known God, they would have known Him, and vice versa. And because they had seen Him, they had seen the Father (John 14:7, John 14:9).

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:16-18 - 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

This is what Jesus taught, regardless of what you claim.

a reply to: Deetermined

According to texts written down by Christians 120 years after the crusifiction and 60 years after Paul won the fight for the churches doctrinal path.

Paul who never even met Jesus and his whole “claim to fame” is a very Mormon like “I had visions “.....


Paul who never performed a miracle and ATLEAST half of the deciles rejected.

All of that before 1800 years of edits and translations...


More than that, the Torah specifically said that god is not a man.. and I think even warns that if anyone who claims to be god shows up, they are lying..

Your acting like what Christians believed hasn’t literally changed every other generation...

a reply to: Deetermined

The books written a hundred years after his death and then compiled 400 years later by a pagan Roman emporer , That were specifically meant to convince people of Christianity can definitely be trusted to be historically accurate?!!!

It isn’t like there was money to be made off lying...

Oh there was trillions to be made huh??

a reply to: ketsuko

Even child molestors , rapists and murderers??

White supremists and Islamic terrorists all happening “through god”..


How quaint.. and horrifying..

a reply to: Akragon

A “settled fact” because they burned everyone who disagreed until matin Luther split the church enough to make burning the “heretics “ undoable..

It doesn’t get much more “ justified” than that lol..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why do you keep going on about Paul? Everything I've posted has come from the books of John, which didn't teach anything differently than what Paul did. It's clear that you haven't read or compared the scriptures.

And while you want to complain about the accuracy of the New Testament, maybe it would help to know and understand how much of the Old Testament is repeated, explained and included in the new...

www.biblecharts.org...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

More than that, the Torah specifically said that god is not a man.. and I think even warns that if anyone who claims to be god shows up, they are lying..

Surely you're aware of the fact that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was both God and man?

No worries, Jesus won't be returning as a man, as he has already died a human death. Here's how the Bible describes his return when he brings wrath to unbelievers and then sets up his Millennial Kingdom...

Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:24-25 - 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

It's somewhat amusing to see how some posters seem to think that the bible can be trusted as genuine in any way, shape or form. Let us be honest - the historicity of the bible is deeply uncertain.

a reply to: Akragon

So sure you can believe that Jesus sent Jesus in Jesus' name as the comforter And you can believe that Jesus was equal to his Father, even though he state the opposite quite blatantly

But I never said that Jesus or the Holy Spirit was equal to The Most High EL. What I said from the onset of our conversation was the the Holy Spirit was a substance of which no one knows exactly what spirit is. But it must be an entity of sorts in order to be sent as a comforter and teacher. Jesus never sent the Holy Spirit. It was the Father who sent the Spirit of truth to only those who believe in Jesus as the Christ.

In the OT the same Holy Spirit [I assume] fell upon various people for various lengths of time and then was withdrawn from that person but here the same Spirit is given to the justified as long as that one remains justified. After the tribulation and 1st resurrection we hear no more of the Holy Spirit. The reason for this is, that all the justified souls are gathered and taken to paradise in this first resurrection. That leaves only the unjustified souls left in the world and the Holy Spirit withdrawn from this world. In place of the Holy Spirit being withdrawn is "The Word Of God" who will replace the Holy Spirit and reign for 1,000 years. Then comes the end of this entire creation.

Meanwhile, till the 1st resurrection happens, it is the Holy Spirit that replaces Jesus and then Jesus will once again replace the Holy Spirit in His 1,000 years reign. So by all of this is the question as to what is the Holy Spirit. Evidently the Holy Spirit is an entity that can cause and direct happenings. It is an authority of power of some sort of which no one really understands and is a representative of the Creator and Jesus. To reject the Holy Spirit is to deny that God exists and is condemnation from the Creator.