The “Promised Land” Belongs to Palestinians and Jews

Rothchild family bought Isreal from the Ottoman empire back in 1867,this was a long term plan,as far as promised land,as far as religious history,none of these storys jive from true history,something up I can't put finger on

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Sahabi

sorry. yasser arafatt himself said moder palis are a lie him and the PLO came up with that built off of the jewish palestinian hebrews enemy the philistines.(THESE ARE NOT ARABS) They later called themselves israeli when israel was remade. palestinians ceased to be until after the wars of israel and the PLO.

This is also a straw man argument. You are focusing on semantics, wording, and verbiage of the designation “Palestine” and ”Palestinian People”.

For a moment, let’s drop the words “Palestine” and “Palestinian”.

There is a distinct ethnic group within and around Israel-proper. This ethnic group contains many former Jews, Samaritans, and Hebrews who have changed their religion to Islam, Christianity, and/or the Druze faith, who then went on to change their Jewish/Hebrew surnames to reflect their faith of conversion.

When genetic testing was performed on ancient and classical graves of Israel-proper, the aforementioned ethnic group was empirically found to also contain genes from all historic peoples who have lived in the Levant. This genetic group was found to be Arabized and not originally Arab; being distinct from true Arabs and closely related to Jewish People.

Let us focus on this substantiated and verifiable ethnic group who are living and breathing humans, rather than focusing on straw man terminology and semantics.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
"We owned it once before, so we should get it back now," is a pretty weak argument. Did you lose it a poker game? Or multiple wars? Then it ain't yours anymore.

Both the Palestinians and Jews hold this argument in their own favor,... both have committed justifiable and unjustifiable offenses,... and both are equally connected to the Levant and to each other through history and genetics.

My stance is not one based upon the relinquishing of land or the denial of statehood for either group. Instead, I am a proponent of the free, safe, and dignified living of all.

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
Wasn't the promised Land promised to the Jews?

The victors write history.

Not sure why anyone wants to kill over a hot desert climate for. To each their own. As far as I'm concerned they can all have it, just keep me the hell out of it.

According to the Bible, the Promised Land was promised to the seed of Abraham and the Hebrew-Israelites who followed Moses and Joshua.

However, the Palestinians hold heritage and genetic familiarity with the ancient Canaanites, the classical Levantines, and also with the Jews.

This discussion is not meant to favor one group above the other, rather, it is meant to inject understanding, compassion, and empathy into the turmoil with the hopes of reconciliation and peace.

originally posted by: carewemust
Entire planet belongs to God.

Personally, I do not believe that mankind owns the Earth, but instead, we are all from and of the Earth. In saying that the Promised Land belongs to the Palestinians and Jews, we are promoting the stance that both people deserve to live in the land of their ancestors and forefathers, both groups together in mutual respect.

a reply to: Sahabi

This is also a straw man argument. You are focusing on semantics, wording, and verbiage of the designation “Palestine” and ”Palestinian People”. For a moment, let’s drop the words “Palestine” and “Palestinian”. There is a distinct ethnic group within and around Israel-proper. This ethnic group contains many former Jews, Samaritans, and Hebrews who have changed their religion to Islam, Christianity, and/or the Druze faith, who then went on to change their Jewish/Hebrew surnames to reflect their faith of conversion. When genetic testing was performed on ancient and classical graves of Israel-proper, the aforementioned ethnic group was empirically found to also contain genes from all historic peoples who have lived in the Levant. This genetic group was found to be Arabized and not originally Arab; being distinct from true Arabs and closely related to Jewish People. Let us focus on this substantiated and verifiable ethnic group who are living and breathing humans, rather than focusing on straw man terminology and semantics.

I see what you saying here, but what is the point of this? What is the formula for peace here? How these conclusions can resolve the conflict?
I'm sure that if you do some genetic testing on Jordanians/Egyptians/Lebanese/Syrian people, you will find a very similar genetic origin for all of them. So maybe all these countries belong to Palestinians as well?
What is your conclusion here?

originally posted by: carewemust
Entire planet belongs to God.

And per the Jewish™ faith, it MUST be God that restores The Land the Jews are to call "Home". The Ones running Israel™ now are Zionist™ playing someone with Jewish faith.

a reply to: Sahabi

While scientifically accurate and interesting, genetic heritage is almost irrelevant. Genetics do not mean anything, genetics dont make a people.

Just because you have a certain ethnic backround doesnt mean you are automatically part of a nation.
Of course there are states which base their Immigration policies on some form of ethno nationalism and (for example) give automatic citizenship to members of their own ethnic group (Germany, Russia, Turkey, Israel etc) but they dont define themselve as a people / nation based soley on genetics. Noone does, it's stupid, genetics are way too diverse and mixed up in and between different ethnic groups.

This is also true for all the Research about semetic palestinians or whatever. Yes, there are similarities pointing to a common ancestor but there are also vast differences, just as with other people, including the Jews.
Anyway, the points is, people/nations first and foremost define themsevles based on a shared history, culture, religion, homeland, fate, ideas, perceived destiny etc.

Genetics only come into play as they predispose people to a certain way of life and way of looking at things.
So as for Palestinians and the Promised Land, while they share some similarities with other (surviving) semetic people, Palestinians don’t share the Jews claim on the land. They don’t identify themselves as descendant from the Philistines or whatever.

It may very well be true that some could trace their lineage back to those ancient times but as said, simply irrelevant. I could probably trace my lineage back to some very interesting ancestors as well, so could you. Or to put it in another way, just because 1 in 200 men is a direct descendant of Genghis Kahn doesn’t mean they are Mongols. This is also scientifically true and yet nobody cant plain their rightful heritage of the Mongolian grasslands or some similar bs.

Palestinians today identify themselves as Arab. This is really the key point. Look back hundred years. There were no distinct Palestinian people just like there were no distinct Jordanians or Iraqis. They were all part of the greater Arabian family and predominantly Arabs living in Palestine at the time regarded themselves as part of Greater Syria. This began to happen during the Ottoman Empire and was never anything more than part of the pan arab / islamist national movement going on at the time.

Legitimate of course – all people deserve to be free and have a right to self determination – but no claim to historic semetic roots at all. When the Westbank was ruled by Jordan from 48 to 67 there was no quest for Palestinian independence either. They were perfectly happy to live under Arab rule. Simply because they identify themselves as Arabian.

You would have a point if the Palestinians of today would have emerged from the depths of history claiming to be the descendents of ancient people living in the Promised Land (like the Jewish people today) You would have a point if they still retained some of the cultural heritage from back then (like the Jewish people back then).

This isn’t the case and all attemps by some fringe groups to make it appear differently are little more than propaganda.
So in fact, genetic similarities not wistanding, the old people of Canaan gone. Philistines, Canaanites, Phoenicians and the dozens other the Torah mentions are gone. Lost to the pages of history, a fate they share with countless others. Of course their genetic descendents are still around today. Nobody ever has killed an entire ethno group, its flat out impossible.

But as said, genetics don’t give you claim to anything. Retained heritage does. In case of the Jews, they can trace their heritage through the ages back to ancient times. They never went away. They were always there. Identifying as Jews with a claim to Gods Promised Land.
This is what gives them the ‘right’ to life in their homeland. And military might of course. Just as it has always been.

Palestinians too have a right to live were they live. I’m even not disputing that they are a people with a right to selfdetermination. I do think they would be perfectly fine as a people if they all migrated to Jordan, Syria or Lebanon but that’s their decision. But the idea that they have a similar claim to the Promised Land just because they share similar genetics markers as the Jews is far fetched to say the least.

a reply to: JimNasium

And per the Jewish™ faith, it MUST be God that restores The Land the Jews are to call "Home". The Ones running Israel™ now are Zionist™ playing someone with Jewish faith.

You need to understand that for an average Israeli (religious fanatics aside) 'Zionism' is a synonym for 'Patriotism'.
Most of the Israeli population will define themselves as "Zionists" if asked. This is just a way to say "We love this country and will protect it, because there is no other country for us". Of course there are people who actually believe that god promised this land to the Jews but they are a small minority.

a reply to: MaxMech


The point I'm trying to make is this: These folks are as much "Jewish" as the folks who proclaim any religion™ and then go FULL ON AGAINST the tenets of that religion™. Just using that religion™ to further their own agenda and NOT that of the religion™ they claim.

e.g. "Trudy, will You be going to the Church Bazaar? It is this Friday and TheChurch™ will be serving a plethora of meats. You should see My new pantsuit I bought to dazzle. It has 4 different threads combined to make a real cute outfit.. Isn't it great that We can also write ALL of this off on taxes"...?


If occupying "Our Country" AFTER proclaiming the Faith that goes against proclaiming that country?

And when One does NOT differentiate betwixt the Jew and Zionist, then it reads as if the writer is Anti-Semite.

Anti Zionism is NOT Anti Semitism.

www.nkusa.org...


www.nkusa.org...

a reply to: MaxMech

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
They have their own particular, essential nature.
The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

a reply to: MaxMech

The formula is,.... whatever box that we check in support of the Jews, we must also check for the Palestinians,.... and whatever box we check demonizing the Palestinians, we must also check for the Jews.

• Jews have lived in the Levant for many centuries,.... so have the Palestinians.
• Jews were promised the Land of Canaan by God,.... many of the Palestinians are former Jews.
• The Palestinians have terrorized Israeli civilians,... the Israeli-Jews have also terrorized Palestinian civilians.
• The Palestinians have blood on their hands,... so do the Israeli-Jews.

With a neutral view of the situation,... the international community can say,... Israeli-Jews and Palestinians are both beautiful people who have wronged each other in innumerable instances. Both have ancient and historic ties to the land, both had a presence in the land prior to the declaration of the State of Israel, and both are related to one another.

And just like a loving parent resolving a conflict between their own children, “I don’t care who started it, both of you knock it off and get along with each other.”

originally posted by: Sahabi
...but true peace will come with reconciliation, not through division, hate, or violence.

I'd argue that true peace will only come when people abolish religion and religious belief in its entirety, completely.

How could there ever be peace in that region (as well as other hotspots) of the world when people of religious faith *believe* they are the owners/keepers/true recipients of a promise land? Or believe they are the 'true' children of whichever god?

It doesn't matter what peace plans are brought to the table, nothing will ever change when people of faith have an incorrect, misguided belief that they are 'better' or 'more deserving' of some fictitious deity's blessing and will go to any lengths to prove and uphold it.

If religion were to go, or at least be recognised as what it is -- made up and not real, and people were to work together through education, logic and common sense, THEN we might see peace.

But until then, I can't see it ever happening. Religious faith blinds everyone who professes to have it.

a reply to: mightmight

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I must point out that the genetic studies are extremely relevant and are in no way absurd.

The Palestinians are not related to the Jews through some archaic common ancestor. We are not at all discussing the “Perishing Arabs”, nor the “Qahtanian Pure Arabs”, nor the “Ishmaelite Adnanian Arabs”. Your reply would be well suited if the Palestinians belonged to these Arab ethnic sub-groups.

The Palestinians are related to the Jews, in that, within verifiable modern history, many of the Palestinians are actually the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren of Jews who changed their religion. The mention of genetics is to highlight that the Palestinians are the progeny of prehistoric, ancient, classical, and modern Levantines.

If you believe that the Jews have an iron-clad claim to the Levant, then it should follow that the Palestinians who are directly descended from Jews should also have a share in that claim.

Do you believe that a Jew or Samaritan that converts to Christianity or Islam should be designated as a second-class citizen of Israel or should be encouraged to leave the State of Israel?

a reply to: noonebutme

Thanks for weighing in.

I tend to agree with your overall sentiments, however, I believe that “religious superiority” should be stamped out, rather than religion itself. So long as we can view ourselves as being above others, the doors of apathy become open.

a reply to: JimNasium

The point I'm trying to make is this: These folks are as much "Jewish" as the folks who proclaim any religion™ and then go FULL ON AGAINST the tenets of that religion™. Just using that religion™ to further their own agenda and NOT that of the religion™ they claim.
If occupying "Our Country" AFTER proclaiming the Faith that goes against proclaiming that country?

I don't think this how it payed out. Almost all of the Zionists who worked to establish a Jewish state were secular and didn't claim that "god promised this land to the Jews". They have chosen this place because historically this was the only place were Jews had a kingdom. Instead of going to a random place they went to the only place they had some kind of connection to.
By 2017, most Israelis were born in Israel. In a couple of decades most of the people who immigrated to Israel from somewhere else, will be dead. Nobody cares what god promised in some book (again, religious fanatics aside). Israelis feel that they have a claim for Israel because they have been born and raised there. Because almost everybody they know fought and protected this land from the Arab armies. And because they don't have anywhere else to go.
The religions argument used mostly by crazy settlers.

a reply to: JimNasium

What is "The People of Israel" ?

This is a really complex question, which I don't know the answer to. Judaism can be defined as a religion, nationality or race.
It's a mess really.
What I do know is - who are Israelis. People who have an Israeli passport, regardless of race or religion.
And I know that they have a claim for their home.

The Squirrel Story

a reply to: MaxMech



Israelis = "Yes" Jewish = "No" as it is against their faith.

I guess We can 'label' them as "Jack Jews" like a "Jack Mormon™" that You invite to go camping and they end up drinking ALL Your beer.. They are only their religion™ when it suits them.

a reply to: JimNasium

what about the two million arab israelis?

are they'jack jews 'too?

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: mightmight

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I must point out that the genetic studies are extremely relevant and are in no way absurd.

Im not dismissing those studies. I agree with the general thesis that todays Palestinians have a significant canaaite backround. Just as many of todays Lebanese, Syrians or Jordanians do btw.

My point is, genetics simply dont matter. Todays Jews dont have a claim on the land because they too can trace back their genetics to whoever lived in the region thousands of years ago. Todays Jews have a claim because they retained their orignial heritage over the millenia. Jews have always been Jews. Religiously (that helped alot and was the main reason they survived as a people), culturally (they even preserved their language) and yes, also genetically.

But geneitcs dont matter. You will always find similiar genetic markers in distinct groups if you look hard enough. People interbreed, distinct genetic markers survive through the ages. This is nothing uncommon and true for basically every ethnic group who has ever existed at one point in history.

But just because you as distinct group with a national identity happen to share similar genetic markers connected to some ancient people long gone doesnt mean you are a new incarnation of those people and can claim some sort of heritage. Genetics dont make you anything.

A nation / a people is lost to history not when the last of their ethno group perishes. Its lost when the survivors lose their national identity, culture, religion, common ideas, shared destiny etc.
This happened to all people living in the Promised Land throughout the ages. Except to the Jews.

Palestinians today identify as Arabian. There is nothing with separates an Arab living in the Westbank from an Arab living in Jordan, Lebanon or Syria. They are all par fort he greater pan arabian family. The fact that they and the Jews who happen to live one hill over share a common ancestor doesnt matter at all.

If you believe that the Jews have an iron-clad claim to the Levant, then it should follow that the Palestinians who are directly descended from Jews should also have a share in that claim.

This is the key point.
They dont have a share in that claim because they dont regard themselve as Jewish. The land was promised to Gods chosen people (!) not to everyone who happens to be decendet from Abraham but doesnt identify as jewish.
Now personally i would have no problem with the Palestinians embracing their jewish roots and become jewish (again). Lots of jewish people in the dispora did so when the migrated to Israel. Note, jewish doesnt neccessairly mean as in convert to Judaism, see below.

Do you believe that a Jew or Samaritan that converts to Christianity or Islam should be designated as a second-class citizen of Israel or should be encouraged to leave the State of Israel?

Why on earth would i think that? I believe Jews are a people not just a religion. Doesnt really matter what religion they follow, the key point is identifying as jewish, regarding themselves as part of the jewish people.
Ben Gurion of all people was an atheist. Noone with half a brain would claim that he wasnt a Jew.

Israel was funded as a secluar, but jewish state. As such, the state should of course preserve the jewish heritage of nation but also guarantee the rights and freedoms of everyone, no matter what religion. I dont see the two as mutul exclusive.

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: JimNasium

And per the Jewish™ faith, it MUST be God that restores The Land the Jews are to call "Home". The Ones running Israel™ now are Zionist™ playing someone with Jewish faith.

You need to understand that for an average Israeli (religious fanatics aside) 'Zionism' is a synonym for 'Patriotism'.
Most of the Israeli population will define themselves as "Zionists" if asked. This is just a way to say "We love this country and will protect it, because there is no other country for us". Of course there are people who actually believe that god promised this land to the Jews but they are a small minority.

God promised the land to Israel and I think it is in our best interests to let Him
make the decisions.