Mental Illness is a MYTH : Witchcraft and Power Politics in Medicine

originally posted by: dashen
Until you seeing a seemingly normal person smear poo all over the walls to mark his territory I don't think I agree with you.
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The human mind can go wonky in many different ways for many different reasons sometimes from before birth sometimes because of traumatic injuries sometimes because of emotional injuries sometimes because of chemical influences. But to say that there's no such thing as mental illness is probably mental illness

I'm talking about 'mental illness' as an actual disease that can be diagnosed and treated chemically, like heart disease or a fungal infection on your foot.

There's no such thing.

ALL human minds go wonky at some point or another, that doesn't give you a right to label and stigmatize them to such a degree that you can justify forcibly imprisoning them, poisoning and torturing them, and then ostracizing them for the rest of their lives based upon that "diagnosis" you made absent an actual valid criminal charge with a set punishment defined by law.

You aren't even thinking this through at all. You're just imagining some crazy guy smearing poop on a wall and saying "OMG he's crazy - so therefore all psychiatrists, the pharmaceutical industry, and the government's actions in the matter are justified and make perfect sense because - OMG he's crazy - it's poop!!".

You also posted your comment before I even had my second post up - you really need to go read the whole thing.
And same goes for ALL of you who starred this guy's simple minded comment which actually misused definitions and took things out of context.

I'm also really tired of this criticism of normality, being normal is being in harmony with the majority. Everyone deviates a little bit but it's only when your deviation starts to effect others does it become a problem. Questioning normality does not make you deep or revolutionary in your thinking, its cliche.

Next comes stuff like "They said Tesla was crazy" and you know what? Maybe someone like Tesla or other tech pioneers were all a little "crazy" in their time but
1. People like this made usable inventions
2. They didn't negatively impact others for the most part

So there is nothing wrong with saying someone or something is or isn't normal, being not normal is not a problem until its a problem.

1. mental illness
2. mental disease


so which one do you want to talk about here


illness may come and go

mental disease has no cure, band-aide treatment to prevent relapses , but all docs of this profession will tell you "ALL" patients will have relapses regardless of drug therapy.

If the idea of the thread is to remove the stigma of "Mental Health" then great, I applaud You but having grown up in a house w/an older adopted brother who is still "presenting a mis-diagnosis of a physical disease" after 45 years and then working as a cop, I'd disagree. Now maybe if alleged 'nut' only took down their own Self, at the point when they've determined was their limit, there wouldn't be such a stigma attached.

I'd also bet if the costs associated with MI wasn't passed onto the taxpayer, those receiving 'therapy' etc. wouldn't be targets.

a reply to: muzzleflash

I'm talking about 'mental illness' as an actual disease that can be diagnosed and treated chemically, like heart disease or a fungal infection on your foot.

There's no such thing.

Bollocks!

ALL human minds go wonky at some point or another, that doesn't give you a right to label and stigmatize

You mean like how we also "stigmatise" people with diabetes, heart disease.... what a load of rubbish

ALL human minds go wonky at some point or another, that doesn't give you a right to label and stigmatize

Have you ever seen someone getting CPR, the above description could also describe a ALS scenario.

originally posted by: TheMZA

originally posted by: dashen
Until you seeing a seemingly normal person smear poo all over the walls to mark his territory I don't think I agree with you.

Oh no...his brain is operating normally and your bias against poop just fuels this problem of discrimination against perfectly healthy rational individuals who have a preference for smearing poop on everything they own.

I think the OP may have an argument if he didn't cast such a wide net. Sure things like "depression" are over diagnosed but to claim there is no such thing as mental illness is just plain retarded. He may be confused about the difference between the mind and brain, neurology and psychiatry and psychology.

But given the HORRIBLE arguments he has put forward we are bound to see some real intellectual gems pop up here, sit back and enjoy

This is where you made the mistake -

You are equating "RATIONAL THINKING" with "HEALTHY BRAIN FUNCTIONS".
Most all of us have healthy brains ok? But we do some really irrational things, and we even do a lot of things that other people would judge as being really weird or gross or strange.

People have very poor educations and were raised in really messed up environments, this is the primary reason that they act out in such unconventional, and often times disturbing and dangerous ways.

Is killing normal? No?
Depends on where you are.
If you were in Syria or Iraq or Libya etc the last 15 years I bet you'd have seen tons of killing - and you might have even felt forced into participating in the cluster#. Those people aren't mentally ill, they are adapting to a psychotic environmental situation. Many of them act out in totally unacceptable ways (like raping a corpse or cannibalism) and this is not a result of brain damage - it's a result of them being overwhelmed with stresses and not having a clue how to cope with them properly.

Rather than spend the thousands of hours necessary to council an individual and help them work out their problems rationally, providing proper economic, political, legal, and medical aid - they will simplify these people and their complex challenging problems under a label and then treat them according to a set of guidelines or policies. The result of this is that these individuals rarely ever solve any of their problems or resolve their mental, emotional, and Spiritual baggage - and instead are obliterated and reduced to shells of their former selves, carrying even more baggage and facing stigma in society.

Just for kicks, let's say that there is no such thing as mental illness nor professionals that can help someone who can't think like you think that they should. If that is the case then I would be dead in the gave a few months after she died. I'M NOT, however, thanks to the help of the therapists that I have seen over the past 4 years. If you believe that there is no such thing as mental illnesses then please explain the actions of people that I have known who spend several hours on the phone talking or singing with celebrities that are not on the other end? Explain why a former neighbor thought that I worked for the CIA? Since this is ATS I'll leave out the one who thought she had sex with Jim Morrison's ghost or sees and talks width shadow people as well. None of the above people had any sort of tumor or physical impairment to the brain. So what they did was caused by their imagination? Was it caused by reading too much at ATS. Sorry, that is not the case. I and the others have/had MENTAL ILLNESS What else should we call their behaviors, should we just call it Fred or Susie? There is a reason these mental illnesses have separate names.

End of rant.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Mental illness shows up in people regardless of their education levels or quality of education.

originally posted by: TheMZA
a reply to: muzzleflash

So if these labels were meant to stigmatize people of sound mind then what about schizophrenics? Does the "label" stigmatize them or does hacking up the wife to close the stargate do the trick?

Have you ever worked with the homeless?
Have you ever had to take care of a schizo family member that was off their meds?

I've been around the mentally ill my entire life and I've seen some totally messed up stuff.

You aren't even listening to what I'm talking about. There are a lot of concepts you need to understand to really get what I'm saying here.

People who murder people are criminally liable and must face their charges in court, they have rights.

Here's a point:
Only some murderers take the so called 'insanity plea'.
But I assure you, every person who murdered someone in cold blood was insane. So therefore the insanity plea is silly and nonsensical - either they committed a crime or they are innocent on various grounds. The insanity plea is an aberration and ought to be removed from the court system entirely.

Also,
Being of sound mind means:
Compos Mentis = Having mastery of the mind, sanity, rational.
Non Compos Mentis = troubled conscience

" Furthermore, according to Chesterton,[2] sanity involves wholeness, whereas insanity implies narrowness and brokenness."

Troubled conscience and brokenness CANNOT BE SOLVED WITH PILLS or ELECTROSHOCK!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: muzzleflash

Mental illness shows up in people regardless of their education levels or quality of education.

Mental illness is highly subjective.

A higher evolved ET species may look at our current society as completely insane. We poison ourselves, step over each other for personal gain, trade a finite number of our lives working for dollars that actually don't exist, and are printed up in the trillions by a private organization, out of nothing. We also sleep 1/3 of our lives away too.

We drink and take drugs to numb the miserable pain, in our lives, and call it socializing, and tell kids under 21 it's illegal for them and bad, but adults it's ok because we need it to feel good. lol

And most of the people live for future happiness, such as vacations.

So your statement holds true.

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: TheMZA
a reply to: muzzleflash

So if these labels were meant to stigmatize people of sound mind then what about schizophrenics? Does the "label" stigmatize them or does hacking up the wife to close the stargate do the trick?

Have you ever worked with the homeless?
Have you ever had to take care of a schizo family member that was off their meds?

I've been around the mentally ill my entire life and I've seen some totally messed up stuff.

You aren't even listening to what I'm talking about. There are a lot of concepts you need to understand to really get what I'm saying here.

People who murder people are criminally liable and must face their charges in court, they have rights.

Here's a point:
Only some murderers take the so called 'insanity plea'.
But I assure you, every person who murdered someone in cold blood was insane. So therefore the insanity plea is silly and nonsensical - either they committed a crime or they are innocent on various grounds. The insanity plea is an aberration and ought to be removed from the court system entirely.

Also,
Being of sound mind means:
Compos Mentis = Having mastery of the mind, sanity, rational.
Non Compos Mentis = troubled conscience

" Furthermore, according to Chesterton,[2] sanity involves wholeness, whereas insanity implies narrowness and brokenness."

Troubled conscience and brokenness CANNOT BE SOLVED WITH PILLS or ELECTROSHOCK!

Mental illness is a Myth?

I came in for the witchcraft, now I'm just confused.

OP, you said that certain illnesses are physical but mental illness is not and you can't measure it.

That is plain wrong. Depression and anxiety are directly related to measurable amounts of serotonin. The reason these are imbalanced in some people can be fleeting [and normal, yet still painful for the affected] after a trauma for example but we know exactly why.
We can tell how adrenaline is produced, which will have an effect on ion channels in the brain etc etc etc.

For people who are chronically suffering, we know that they lack ion channels that release serotonin or in some they over produce. In the cold hard light of day emotional mental illnesses are no more than wonky bits in the brain not doing what they should. That to me is pretty physical.

Schizophrenia is one level up. yeah sure, if you live in the jungle and people believe you have a direct line to other dimensions, it has proven very positive for the sufferer. That is probably what you mean with your post.
Here is a diagnosed schizophrenic, yet in the Amazon hes just been made a shaman.
It is absolutely true...however...

There are different degrees of schizophrenia, some can become shamans, others will slit everyone's throat at night because they think everyone is a demon. Another lot may be peaceful but incapable of actually communicating meaningfully.

Plus schizophrenic brains are also different physically from [dare I say it] what we call normal brains.

In a perfect world every mentally ill person could live among the 'normal' populace and everyone would be hap...hang on, they tried that here in Britain and it's a disaster.
Some mentally ill people are just not able to cope, a lot become homeless and some prove dangerous.
[I myself had got fist in my face from a mentally ill patient once...he had also broken his mum's ribs and a nurse's arm]. His brain was damaged and his behaviour was the outcome.
Nothing would make him able to live safely amongst others. Despite you saying that mental illness doesn't exist.

Why do people think it can't exist?
Our hearts can go wonky, our lungs can pack in, our kidneys can stop their efficency...why on earth can't there be something wrong with something as delicate as the brain?

Even a small change in the brain's function can have some very different consequences on behaviour. You can make people go crazy by sticking their head into a strong magnet for example.
We are just meat robots.
We all accept that computers can crash if they overheat but a brain is much, much more susceptible to anything really and there are thousands of ways normality can be disrupted.

Mental illness is real. In america they give out drugs like sweets, in india [sorry indians, it's just an example I made up] they probably just tie you to a lamppost or something and in the amazon you become the new head shaman.

We [as humans] are still trying to find the best way to deal with it, all around the world. Yet in all cases the mental illness it is real and physical and can't just be magicked away ...a lot of people are actually suffering.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: muzzleflash


Who defines what is normal to then use that as a qualifier as to what constitutes being mentally ill?

The quackery of psychiatry has basically deemed anyone whos behavior is not up to societal norms to be a mental issue. Who decides what is normal? The government? A doctor who has a different view of life and politics from you? I do believe there are people who's brain chemistry is out of whack and really do need to be on medication, but as I see it, it has become a money making scam to get people on Big Pharms dole and a means to stifle free expression in those who are not dangerous to themselves or others.

Look at the amount of people on anti depressants for instance. We all get depressed at times yet the doctors are quick to write you a scrip for those meds? Yet look at the side effects! Most depression is easily solved by just changing your thinking habits and behavior. How many people are depressed because they just can't cope because they won't face their responsibilities and instead choose to run from things they need to face? Yet that leads to depression and then they get put on meds. Why?

Thank you for your comment.
You get it.

I'm actually surprised most people on ATS are so stuck in the box they don't get what I'm talking about at all.

They think I'm saying "no one ever did anything crazy!", which is not what I'm saying at all.
I think you realized what I'm saying is that our system of "classifying and treating 'mental illness'" makes no freaking sense and is the craziest thing of all.

This is how sneaky and cunning the psychiatrists behind the entire mental illness mythology are - they can take advantage of language and people's lack of education or language skills to manipulate them into thinking that "crazy" is a type of disease - ala virus bacteria fungus or DNA mutations.

My main argument here is that "insanity" is actually heavily based on ignorance. That they just don't know any better. And if they did know better, than they either had a reason that they thought made sense and or they are just stupid.

a reply to: muzzleflash

My main argument here is that "insanity" is actually heavily based on ignorance.

Cool so what work experience and qualifications do you have in this industry?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Wait until you meet someone with depression before and after getting help or before and after a relapse. Then you'll sing a different tune.

Mental illnesses may be over diagnosed, but that is a symptom of a lack of more nuanced mental science. If we know more, we can diagnose a lot more efficiently, but mental illnesses DEFINITELY exist.

I have ADD. I KNOW this for a fact because I've dealt with it all my life and exhibit the symptoms all the time. I don't take adderal or other ADD medicine for it, but that doesn't mean I don't have it.

You don't have Attention Deficit Disorder - there's no such thing.

You're just impatient and need to exercise better self control and learn how to focus more effectively.

But don't focus too effectively - they'll start saying you have obsessive compulsive than! Hahah.
See what I'm saying?

No of course not, you've been conditioned and trained to live a victim mentality and rather than face your deficiency and overcome it - you want to just pretend it's an illness for whatever reasons.

a reply to: muzzleflash

The fact that you come to ATS to say crazy people doesn't exist is hilarious.

originally posted by: Hecate666

We [as humans] are still trying to find the best way to deal with it, all around the world. Yet in all cases the mental illness it is real and physical and can't just be magicked away ...a lot of people are actually suffering.

That's the issue we don't deal with it, we in the west prescribe pills, and profit from the people who can afford them.

My personal opinion is many of the so called mental illnesses is because our society, as a whole is going down the wrong path.

Look at the number of people losing it and shooting things up. Look at the number of SSRI's found in drinking water, and that is after it's passed through the kidneys, and water purification systems.

Drugs in Drinking Water?

We need to slow down and re-evaluate how we are living our lives.

a reply to: muzzleflash

You don't have Attention Deficit Disorder - there's no such thing.

What qualifies you to make such a statement?

What people should just stop their meds now because you say that it doesn't exist.

While I do agree with some points that the Op has posted, however, mental illness is not a myth or a construct.

There are real people out there, dealing with real issues, that all deal around the mind.

The brain is a highly complicated organ, that science is still trying to figure out. In short it is an organ that is like a giant computer running trillions if not more lines of commands every moment of every day. And something one of those commands goes a bit wrong, hence the illness that comes up. I have seen first hand both what the illness that exists in the mind that is not related to a physical event or physical root cause. it is not pretty, it is not simple nor is it something that a person can just handle without support of people behind them. And I have also seen mental illness first hand, where it did have a root cause, and again it was not nice or pretty, but disheartening and sad.