Pentagon: only ground invasion can destroy North Korean nuclear program

I personally am beginning to believe NK and Kim Jong Un is more of a western proxy state than that of China. I mean, the dude received a top notch western education in Europe supposedly under everyones noses, convienent.

He serves keeping the purpose of keeping fear up pretty well among others.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: starwarsisreal

You can't win a war without putting boots on the ground.
Trump really needs to pressure China to take care of north korea. They are the only ones that have any chance to do it without a bunch of deaths.

This can be done w/o putting boots on the ground. I've been saying all along that a pre-emptive strike on NK - starting with their EMP satellites - will take care of this threat.

We can take Lil' Kim out too, although I favor his being captured alive, to stand trial before an international court for human rights violations.

China won't get involved. China won't do squat to Kim because he is their ally.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: starwarsisreal

Who, exactly, was this.."top Pentagon official"?????

There's like 30,000 people (maybe more) at the Pentagon on any given day. Most of the news media wouldn't know a snake if it bit them, so how would they know a "top Pentagon official"???

I'm raising the BS flag.

Michael J. Dumont
Rear Admiral US Navy
Vice Director Joint Staff

Wrote to the jont staff washinton DC on october 27. The information in question given by the OP was probably made Public by Ted W Lieu. who sits in the US House of Representatives Washington DC.

The letter exists.... i have seen it.

originally posted by: intrptr

The only way to locate and destroy with complete certainty all components of North Korea’s nuclear weapons program is through a ground invasion, a top Pentagon official has said.

At least he admits it.

Don't forget to mention General, unlike the Korea of the 1950's, the Korea of today has fifteen thousand artillery and rocket positions along the border in caves and hardened bunkers, a submarine fleet and sea skimming anti shipping missile inventory.

Let alone nuclear friggin weapons. That would be some amphibious style invasion, this time.

Besides that the Chinese and Russians are both massing along the border to the North, just in case you are stupid enough to go all in, again, Sir.

Yeah because an army / navy / airforce using technology from the 1950's is going to fair well against 21st century technology.

Could be true, or the report could be propaganda for North Korea to think that`s our only option.

a reply to: wantsome

I guess you haven't seen how the South has fortified it's main passes with large detonation barriers.
Nor have you broken down the order of battle...I remember the ROCs bathing in the river in the winter,then running warm.
I think they got it.

a reply to: spy66

OH GOOD it's a SAILOR...
Now a Generals statement ,maybe,would interest me,the rest are support elements.

originally posted by: Ohanka

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: starwarsisreal

Not really sure about that. When we went up against Iraq in Desert Shield / Storm we were led to believe that the mighty 4th largest army in the world would bloody our noses a bit and that didn't happen. They were steamrolled!

Well they didn't really fight. The Iraqi Army by large surrendered en masse or ran away. Including the Republican Guard. They were a very tired, hungry, and rebellious Army at the time of the US liberation of Kuwait.

Something very similar happened in 2003, where the Iraqi Army and Republican Guard by large simply went home rather than fight. Much of the fighting was done by Paramilitary Quasi-religious Militias.

Don’t forget that the majority of Iraqi casualties in Desert Storm took place along the highway between Kuwait and Iraq proper. Americans declared it a free fire zone and annihilated any vehicle along it, which included retreating Republican Guards units using stolen civilian cars. Combat aircraft vs civilian cars along a stretch of desert highway. Estimates of up to 100,000 deaths there.

originally posted by: dilly83
a reply to: aethertek

The troop numbers for the Iraq War were around 30% of what was recommended by Army chief General Shinseki. Considering what was done with the limited manpower. There has been a "golden ratio" of one troop per fifty people for an occupation force in order to establish stability. Germany after WW2 had these numbers as did the Balkan Wars of the 1990s. Afghanistan has similar numbers.

Also the major stock exchanges in the US are strong as is the dollar.

South Korea has a formidable military and double the population of North Korea. South Korea is positioned to play the bigger role in an occupation while the US would be more involved in the early invasion side of things it would seem.

Point being the US and S. Korea could do it. But N. Korea may get a couple nukes off, Been to two wars myself and not hoping for a third.

The American military invasion of Iraq 2003 was conducted as a virtual war, in that tactics were priority to ensure maximum kill ratios while maintaining low risk to their own forces. It was successful because of a number of factors. One factor of note was the fact that Saddam was complying with the American demand to dismantle their strategic weapon platforms, such as ballistic missiles, that could have made things a lot messier.

However, that was just the initial invasion against Saddam’s state regime. The Americans planned beyond this long before they attacked. The plan was two-pronged: balkanize Iraq into three sectors based on religious/sectarian ideologies; and to emplacement American officials as the de facto state (civilian) bureaucracy of the new regime.

It fell apart almost immediately. And this was entirely predictable. The result was that when the USA finally packed up and left, the regime realized that it had to ally with likeminded neighbors to survive. That is why they are working well with Syria and Iran right now against the Kurds and ISIS. Relations with Turkey also seem to be better, as the West fell from grace as Turkey’s allies after the botched CIA coup attempt.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: intrptr

The only way to locate and destroy with complete certainty all components of North Korea’s nuclear weapons program is through a ground invasion, a top Pentagon official has said.

At least he admits it.

Don't forget to mention General, unlike the Korea of the 1950's, the Korea of today has fifteen thousand artillery and rocket positions along the border in caves and hardened bunkers, a submarine fleet and sea skimming anti shipping missile inventory.

Let alone nuclear friggin weapons. That would be some amphibious style invasion, this time.

Besides that the Chinese and Russians are both massing along the border to the North, just in case you are stupid enough to go all in, again, Sir.

Yeah because an army / navy / airforce using technology from the 1950's is going to fair well against 21st century technology.

The geography hasn't changed. The reason US was stymied last time, Northern Korean Peninsula terrain is mountainous. This is the same reason NATO cannot reduce Afghanistan, even with "21st century technology'".

But thats the whole idea isn't it, endless war means endless profits from arms sales, doesn't it?
Same thing in Vietnam, only there instead of mountains it was Jungle Canopy.

originally posted by: FocusedWolf

Nukes are ineffective in mountainous terrain. Same reason why no empire has ever subjugated Afghanistan.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: face23785
I wouldn't be too worried about an armed insurgency considering the general population isn't allowed to own firearms (a favorite law of dictators everywhere), and even the Army isn't properly equipped.

I would reccon that there would be millions of guns in North Korean homes. Practically everyone serves in the millitary.

From Your own link:

North Korea, strictly prohibits the use, ownership, manufacture, or distribution of firearms by any citizen not serving in the military or special sectors of the government "executing official duties".

Practically everyone doesn't serve in the military, that's a misconception spread by the media because they cover this subject in 5 minute spurts where you can't get into any real information. North Korea has a large standing army, around a million troops. That's about 4% of the population (around 25 million), a much higher rate than most other countries. However, not all of those are combat troops. Like any Army, many of them are support and logistics, who are typically lightly armed or not armed at all in some armies. The 5, 6 million number you hear about is counting reserves and paramilitary forces, most of which are inactive at any given time. They are only armed when they are activated. They're not allowed to keep weapons in their homes.

And as my 2nd link asserts, if they activated all of them at once it's doubtful they'd even be able to arm them all. Some soldiers are still issued old M3s they captured from American troops in the war in the 50s. They don't have enough guns of their own to arm all those people. Then you have to consider ammunition. Do you have enough ammo for all of them to be effective? A historical example: Hitler had a huge force defending the Atlantic wall, but they didn't have enough ammunition so some sections were defended by troops that only had 1 or 2 magazines for their guns. They were virtually useless. NK simply doesn't have the money or the manufacturing capability to go through the billions of rounds every year to keep all those people proficient on their weapons, much less keep them armed at all times.

Give this a read. A North Korean defector talks about what a joke their "military" is.

While North Korea is often credited with having a “million-man army,” many are not combat-ready troops and are instead conscripted for up to 10 years at a time, largely as an easily-mobilized source of labor.

There are about 300,000 combat-ready troops, most of them poorly equipped and concentrated in the area near the inter-Korean demilitarized zone (DMZ), Gen. Vincent Brooks, commander of U.S. Forces Korea, told the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee earlier this year.

By comparison, South Korea has 628,000 active soldiers, most of whom are also conscripts, and 4.5 million reservists. North Korea has 5.7 million reservists, according to the IISS Military Balance 2016, most of whom are part of the under-equipped, para-military Worker-Peasant Red Guard.

The myth the media has created about NK's giant army really needs to die. This doesn't mean they're not dangerous. Their rocket artillery is a bigtime problem, but as you'll see here, most of their artillery can't even reach Seoul. So when you hear analysis about their thousands of artillery pieces leveling Seoul in a matter of hours, that's a misconception too.

Of the vast artillery force deployed by the North along the border, only a small portion — Koksan 170-mm self-propelled guns, as well as 240-mm and 300-mm multiple launch rocket systems — are capable of actually reaching Seoul. Broadly speaking, the bulk of Pyongyang's artillery can reach only into the northern border area of South Korea or the northern outskirts of Seoul.

The USA should implement a rock solid defense against foreign missile attacks and then tell the Far Eastern World to take care of their own problem.

There is no debate NK is threatening to use them, threatening to destroy everything within 5,000 miles of NK, including South Korea, Japan, the Pacific theater and even the United States if they can pull it off. They've made this clear. Their form of government is the most sinister and evil of all, and western society could never live under such rule. They are a true "enemy".

You can't justify killing hundreds of thousands or even millions of people because of rhetoric. So they say they might do something.. so the answer is to go to war? Their track record with threats being carried out as they claimed they would is ridiculously low. So low, that going to war over something they say they may do is a ridiculous premise.

I still think more can be done on the diplomacy-side of things, sanctions, etc.. before we'd have to resort to war. Also keep in mind NK said they would be willing to have diplomatic talks.. but only after they had the ability to have nukes that can reach anywhere in the United States. Obviously not a great result, but.. that's NK saying they don't want war, they'll talk.. but only once on even terms.

a reply to: face23785

You seem to be ignoring the fact that virtually every adult in the DPRK has gone through conscription training and service. They all understand how to use military weaponry, how to organize as units and network under an umbrella command, and they are all in relatively fit shape. Their discipline is impeccable, as evidence by their massive choreographed rallies, and discipline is what holds a standing army together. Did you ever see the Iraqi Republican Guard dancing in perfect unison in parades on the street?

And it’s also an asset that they are a massive labour force as well; not only does this preserve discipline during downtime but it also provides labour skills that will be very useful in wartime and post-war conditions, increasing cohesion.

Geography is also on their side, as the DPRK has many mountainous regions that serve as critical chokepoints. They know this and have a shock army of 120,000 strong climbing mountains with backpacks filled with rocks every day. Imagine that it would be like fighting in Afghanistan, except the Korean mountains also have forest cover.

I’m telling you folks that it’s a meatgrinder for any ground invasion. The war will be over for the western coalition when their casualties exceed acceptable losses to the public. With the social instability of the USA today, how many tens of thousands of casualties will it take to create a serious division between the public and the state? It would be political suicide for any political administration.

You don't need to take out this million man army with 9000 artillery pieces.

They are under an embargo, I cannot imagine unlimited ammunition and spare parts, more like plent of out of life artillery and a fair bit of wire and cheap metal holding things together.

You cut the command and control, take out their air defences, hit their logistics and you are left with a million cannon fodder who might just throw down their weapons for a bbq.

Problem we have had in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan is the exit strategy or lack of one, agree that with Russia and China and the UN and there should be no problems deploying half of the Japanese Defence force, a few battalions of yanks and ROK and then perhaps the airborne and SF elements of UK and America to hold the complex systems and prevent nuke launches whilst the rest of the coalition dismantled the regime.

The exit strategy could be UN peacekeepers until a communist leader/party is stood up with UN support.

a reply to: elementalgrove

We also have the energy of the stars, weapons so powerful that they make hydrogen bombs look like firecrackers. We could immolate the entire globe with one button push. The wars which we see now, are carefully orchestrated distractions & economic instruments which do nothing more than bring greater power & resource into the hands of the tyrannical oligarchs which control world events, at least in the West. Every war involving the major Western powers is almost laughably artificial, because of the reality - that we have literal 'death stars' now. Nothing is as it seems - the asteroid belt is a warning against allowing large scale wars to develop in technologically advanced societies. One can only hope that breakaway factions are holding the NWO in check.

originally posted by: TheStalkingHorse
a reply to: face23785

You seem to be ignoring the fact that virtually every adult in the DPRK has gone through conscription training and service. They all understand how to use military weaponry, how to organize as units and network under an umbrella command, and they are all in relatively fit shape. Their discipline is impeccable, as evidence by their massive choreographed rallies, and discipline is what holds a standing army together. Did you ever see the Iraqi Republican Guard dancing in perfect unison in parades on the street?

And it’s also an asset that they are a massive labour force as well; not only does this preserve discipline during downtime but it also provides labour skills that will be very useful in wartime and post-war conditions, increasing cohesion.

Geography is also on their side, as the DPRK has many mountainous regions that serve as critical chokepoints. They know this and have a shock army of 120,000 strong climbing mountains with backpacks filled with rocks every day. Imagine that it would be like fighting in Afghanistan, except the Korean mountains also have forest cover.

I’m telling you folks that it’s a meatgrinder for any ground invasion. The war will be over for the western coalition when their casualties exceed acceptable losses to the public. With the social instability of the USA today, how many tens of thousands of casualties will it take to create a serious division between the public and the state? It would be political suicide for any political administration.

You seem to be ignoring everything I posted. Interviews with defectors, one of which I linked, debunk much of what you've said. But that's fine, believe the myth all you want. We'll probably never find out. If we do take military action, it's highly unlikely we're going to invade. And yes, every military knows how to march. I learned how to march in the Air Force. It's not hard. You're simply misinformed. I tried to help you out but you're not receptive to new information.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: elementalgrove

We also have the energy of the stars, weapons so powerful that they make hydrogen bombs look like firecrackers. We could immolate the entire globe with one button push. The wars which we see now, are carefully orchestrated distractions & economic instruments which do nothing more than bring greater power & resource into the hands of the tyrannical oligarchs which control world events, at least in the West. Every war involving the major Western powers is almost laughably artificial, because of the reality - that we have literal 'death stars' now. Nothing is as it seems - the asteroid belt is a warning against allowing large scale wars to develop in technologically advanced societies. One can only hope that breakaway factions are holding the NWO in check.

I agree with every word of this assessment!!

The gap that exists between the technology that the public is aware of and what the black projects have developed is hard to truly imagine.

I do believe there are breakaway factions that are not only holding the NWO back, they are systematically destroying them. It simply happens in the background.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

"It's all about the Money, money, money".

Tell you this any ground invasion of NK will inevitably bring China into the conflict, and the last time that particular dragon was awoken the whole Korean peninsula was nearly forfeited.

Something to keep in mind.