What's REALLY Happening -- or Not Happening -- in Puerto Rico??? (Hint: We don't know...)

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Justso

Ok you bring in helicopters, now you need to bring in fuel, parts, air crew, maintenance, tools for the maintainers, and possibly security depending on the ground situation.

So which gets priority?

Life saving supplies or helicopters and all associated equipment?

Not to speak for Justso, but I don't understand the distinction you're making. Isn't the same true for trucks? Or any means of travel for distribution?

At this point, the supplies are already there, ready to be distributed. So why would it have to be either/or, rather than part and parcel of the solution?

Would it not also be possible for such drops to originate elsewhere and return to their starting point? Would the choppers even have to land?

I hope these aren't stupid questions. I'm sincerely asking to try to understand the logistics.

a reply to: JinMI

I don't think you're to be proven wrong either. I mean here we are 6+ years and there are still morons using the NOAA tsunami dispersal map as 'proof' radiation spread from Fukushima.

And then those who do get the aid where it belongs will be bashed for "skirting local authority' or some such BS.

And the endless cycle of garbage our media produces grinds on.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Boadicea

I would love to be wrong.

Of course! My apologies if I suggested otherwise.

Given history as an indication, I don't think I will be however.

Yeah, I understand that, unfortunately. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.

If I had to make an assumption on how things will pan out, it would be this. Those supplies will get delivered, by the hands of the U.S. Army/Coast Guard and the reserves.

I've been thinking the same thing. And of course if/when that happens, Trump will either be criticized for sending in all those scary men... or for not doing it soon enough. Hell, maybe both! Makes no sense whatsoever, but none of this makes sense. Not to anyone with a conscience and a heart anyway.

a reply to: Boadicea

Helicopters are short range, and limited load carrying ability to truly make a difference they would need more than what a navy ship typically carries, and as I understand it (could very well be wrong) most of the nearby island all have problems to some degree.

Also to be most effective you would want the helicopters near where the supplies they are carrying so they do not have to waste gas going to get them before delivering them.

As I understand it (again could be wrong) they have trucks at least in San Juan as well as supplies the problem is drivers. (truck driver friend said Fema is searching for American Truckers to agree to go and drive the supply trucks, problem there is Fema has a bad rep for not paying the workers quickly or at all in some cases)

This is all just my opinion based on what I have read, though as we have seen there are about 5 different stories for each situation that has popped up in the news, so your mileage may vary with my opinion.

Isn't the real problem here the usual ME, ME, ME, NOW, NOW, NOW issue? A Union doing what Unions do and ignoring the suffering to get what they want. A local Politician doing what local Politicians do and ignoring the suffering to get what they want. Partisan haters doing what Partisan haters do and ignoring the facts. It all seems soooooooo familiar

a reply to: Irishhaf

Hey, I'm not a logistics person. Just seems to make sense-transportation to get stuff to places. Surely our military could pull this off.
But the blaming has got to stop. Haven't heard much from the Red Cross-haven't heard of celebrities performing to make money for the people of PR.
This is catastrophic-diseases will set in soon if they don't get help soon.

a reply to: Justso

Yes they could pretty easily in fact, but it would require a declaration of martial law (I think) and good lord will democrats lose their minds if trump declares martial law.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Thank you. That helps. Looking at map just now, it's a little over 1,000 miles from Miami to San Juan -- quite a trek. Especially for a helicopter. There should be better options.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Justso

Yes they could pretty easily in fact, but it would require a declaration of martial law (I think) and good lord will democrats lose their minds if trump declares martial law.

^^^^^^ This. This is the damned if you do, damned if you don't paradox of politics. Legally, there are steps that must be taken to do all of that. Unless you subscribe the the idea that we disregard our laws and send in the military in an unprecedented operation in a U.S. Territory.

The local governor would need to request/OK that first. The burden is upon the local politicos at this point. Otherwise, we are no better than a dictatorship with the president wielding the military unlawfully. That, I do not want to see or make precedent for future presidents to refer to and use as an example.

a reply to: Boadicea

Then how about military cargo planes-they can fly quite long distances and make drops-also what about those much ballyhooed Ikea temporary mini houses/that have solar power etc? Haven't really heard many details of help for the people.

a reply to: Boadicea

Only 20% of there drivers turn up for work???

Assuming they can get to work and are being paid one would have to question the reason why on 1/5 of the drivers turn up?

originally posted by: Justso
a reply to: Boadicea

Then how about military cargo planes-they can fly quite long distances and make drops-also what about those much ballyhooed Ikea temporary mini houses/that have solar power etc? Haven't really heard many details of help for the people.

Where do they drop them?
On people on the ground?
On non-existent runways?
In the hills where people cannot get to them?

This is part of logistical planning. You need to have a drop area cleared for that large an operation. First, you need to drop in the Army Corps of Engineers, with heavy equipment to clear drop/landing zones in the affected areas. But how do you know where to drop them to help the most dire in need? That's right, you need to map that out first before you drop people in there.

These things take time, planning, and coordination with the local government officials. And those officials must WANT to help. Some there it is being reported are not willing to help at all and only using this as an opportunity to try to shame the current administration while letting their own people suffer needlessly.

None of this happens in a magic flash. It takes time, planning, and coordination.

originally posted by: Justso
a reply to: Boadicea

Then how about military cargo planes-they can fly quite long distances and make drops-also what about those much ballyhooed Ikea temporary mini houses/that have solar power etc? Haven't really heard many details of help for the people.

I was just looking at the cargo planes as well. We've seen it done before. I'm wondering if it has to do with the locals having to request military assistance before it can be sent in by the president. I'm not sure.

a reply to: Boadicea

like Krakatoa said, where to drop it?

If you drop it at San Juan you have the same problem they have now how do you get it out.

If you drop it in the country side, how do you make sure it actually gets to the people and does not get stolen/hoarded by people/govt officials/gangs?

Its a horrid situation that we have not seen on American soil in my life time that I am aware of.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Only 20% of there drivers turn up for work???

Assuming they can get to work and are being paid one would have to question the reason why on 1/5 of the drivers turn up?

Rumor is they want lots more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I mean Uncle Sams paying right

3.5 million people.

How do you get enough meals and water and supplies to those people every day?

2 meals a day and 1 gallon of water a day.

= 7 million meals and 3.5 million gallons of water spread out over wide areas.

Think about the volume.

Big problem any way they look at it.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Only 20% of there drivers turn up for work???

So we're being told anyway.

Assuming they can get to work and are being paid one would have to question the reason why on 1/5 of the drivers turn up?

There's another thread about the truckers strike specifically, from an ATSer with family in Puerto Rico:

Truck drivers refusing to deliver relief to millions of Puerto Ricans?!

I asked the author about what he was hearing from his friends and family there, and this was his reply:

From what I understand, it is mostly the union brass that is using this tragedy to negotiate better pay/benefits.

Gossip is floating around that any driver that attempts to leave the dock with aid will be immediately fired. Not sure how truthful that statement is, but it would help explain why good-hearted drivers aren't giving the finger to the union. Even though they should.

As far as percentages, I'm not sure. But I would like to think that most of them would just like to steer clear of the politics and help their fellow islanders!

And before all that you need to have reliable island wide communications established. Most of the cell towers were downed in the storm. So, we would need a way to create temporary cell service, island wide. I wonder if hovering drones could be used to create those cell repeaters overhead. That would allow the relief effort better ability to communicate and also allow more people on the ground to call in for help and describe their areas.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Boadicea

like Krakatoa said, where to drop it?

If you drop it at San Juan you have the same problem they have now how do you get it out.

If you drop it in the country side, how do you make sure it actually gets to the people and does not get stolen/hoarded by people/govt officials/gangs?

Its a horrid situation that we have not seen on American soil in my life time that I am aware of.

All good points.

When I first started thinking along these lines, I remembered what happened in Mogadishu (if I'm remembering correctly) back in the '90s when they had similar problems with warlords and such. It got pretty dicey for our military. Not exactly the same situation, but the people are desperate, and desperate people do desperate things.

a reply to: Boadicea

I actually think the people would not cause a problem for the military since they know they are there to help, the problem is getting the PR govt to say please lets do this so folks get help.

I do not want Trump to make a unilateral decision to do so, bad precedent in my opinion.