Why Liberals Aren’t as Tolerant as They Think

a reply to: ketsuko

I tolerate a lot of crap that I admit I'm not very open minded about. For example I tolerate customers coming into my place of work with their pants hanging around their knees, however ridiculous I think it is- but if one of those same people tried to come through my front door with their pants like that they would receive the wedgie of all wedgies as I unceremoniously pulled their underwear upward from the back over the top of their head. I'd say that's limited tolerance.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

But what if the different opinion is that pedophiles aren't really bad people and shouldn't be demonized just because they're pedophiles? Is one being closed-minded if they are not tolerant of that opinion?

What if a radical terrorist has the opinion that Islam should rule the world? Is one being close-minded if they are not tolerant of that opinion?

Do you see where I'm going? If someone's opinion could actually hurt someone else, are we being close-minded by not being tolerant of it?

If someone has the view that all Muslims are evil, couldn't that view lead to actions that eventually hurt innocent Muslims? Am I being close-minded by not being tolerant of that opinion?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: strongfp

I wasn't even thinking of you.

You grouped yourself.

This is about how holding views makes you less tolerant, even prejudiced, toward those who don't share your views, even if you spend all your time endlessly proclaiming how open-minded you are. And that works for all people of any in-group.

Your title and the whole post was assumptions against liberals. You literally labeled an entire group in your heading.
Are you delusional?

a reply to: kaylaluv

No. You are thinking that your so-called open-mindedness inoculates you against prejudice. This is the liberal fallacy.

Consider: What exactly are you open to? Are you open to considering that some people view an unborn as a child and then open to considering their arguments against abortion from that point of view?

If not, then you aren't exactly as open-minded as you claim.

But I can easily guess why you won't. You harbor prejudice against the religious. Your close-minded bias against them prompts you to discard those views without rational consideration in a close-minded fashion. And it leads you to not be at all tolerant of those who hold them.

And don't bother denying it unless you have a really good argument because you and I have been around and around on the abortion issue several times.

a reply to: strongfp

Read the article itself, it takes as many shots at conservatives as it does liberals. I thought I made it plenty clear.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

But what if the different opinion is that pedophiles aren't really bad people and shouldn't be demonized just because they're pedophiles? Is one being closed-minded if they are not tolerant of that opinion?

What if a radical terrorist has the opinion that Islam should rule the world? Is one being close-minded if they are not tolerant of that opinion?

Do you see where I'm going? If someone's opinion could actually hurt someone else, are we being close-minded by not being tolerant of it?

If someone has the view that all Muslims are evil, couldn't that view lead to actions that eventually hurt innocent Muslims? Am I being close-minded by not being tolerant of that opinion?

The difference is degrees of tolerance. This is where I think you see the differences. We all draw a line at some point. I think leftist tend to draw that line a lot sooner than conservatives when it comes to tolerance.

For example, a conservative will say they want school choice. In the video I linked earlier, that is pretty much what Betsy Devos is known for. Yet, her simple position on school choice warrants an entire student body to boo her, call her racist, etc just because she has a different policy position! A conservative will say they are against ILLEGAL immigration and all of a sudden it makes them a racist xenophobe.

None of these positions have anything to do with harming anyone, yet leftist routinely use their disagreement to brand conservatives as closed minded racists. You can't even get to a DISCUSSION because the left takes a morally superior position and uses that to shut down any analysis or debate.

On the other hand, I may tolerate gay marriage. I may even tolerate cross dressers. None of that stuff really bothers me. Live and let live. However, that doesn't mean I have to accept some guy who identifies as a girl using the same restroom with my daughter.

It degrees and nuance.

I will freely admit that I am fairly close minded about some things, I think everyone is if they are honest about themselves...

the difference (I am talking real life not just trolling on the interwebs) is I do not care how you conduct yourself and your life... you can live how ever you like right up to the moment it impacts my life or those I care about.

I honestly and truly do not understand how people from either side of the aisle can be so insistent on pushing their beliefs on others..

While deployed one time I got to walk through a mosque after prayers and the fellow showing me around got into a nice debate about religion... he seemed surprised that I was perfectly at ease in the mosque. I told him, this is your home, your culture , your religion... its not my place to judge any of it... if it works for you that's great, I hope you have a long peaceful and successful life.

He assumed I was intolerant of muslims and honestly was surprised when I asked if it was ok for me see inside the mosque, he really laughed when I told him I would be considered a heretic by Christians.

Anyways... my point is, there is no problem with your prejudices until you try to force them on people that do not want them... So lets get out of each others business and instead take care of ourselves and our neighbors when they need it and the world just might survive another century.

ETA: as for things like Pedophile... I am in a bad place regarding that, with a niece that was taken advantage of by a family friend (she was 15 so in that same realm)... I am extremely close minded about things like that... but for now will just say if it violates the law then arrest and prosecute them... society has set up certain rules and these will influence our pre-dispositions... nurture vs nature and all that.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Think about that. You claim to be and value being open-minded, right? So how do you react when you encounter someone whose values don't align with your own? Are you open minded about that or are you prejudiced against it? If you are prejudiced against it, are you really as open-minded as you claim?

They have their opinion, I have mine. On average neither of us is going to be significantly more informed than the other, and we both probably have a less than ideal solution to the problem. There's certain points I'll argue but disagreement isn't a reason to blindly dislike someone. The more I've listened to every argument, the more I think it's all about emotional based arguments rather than logical ones (that's for all sides). So logical solutions aren't always what people are looking for.

What helps me is that I think of everything on a 50+ year timescale, once you start looking long, most of the details in any argument just don't matter so they're not worth getting bent out of shape over.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Consider: What exactly are you open to? Are you open to considering that some people view an unborn as a child and then open to considering their arguments against abortion from that point of view?

I'm totally open to that. But I also recognize that raising children takes money, I also think people should have the option to not get pregnant. So doesn't it make sense that an idea which could please both groups is substantially reducing abortions but also making a plethora of birth control options widely available, as well as having a better support structure for people who have a baby but don't want/can't support one?

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: WhateverYouSay
Being open minded and tolerant is good so long as it serves the greater goal of peace. I am not open minded to people that aren't open minded to others and will use their power to supress them. There's a lot of groups that fit that last category, on both sides.

I am not open minded to people that aren't open minded to others and will use their power to supress them.

This is usually the issue with leftist. They often see their positions as morally superior and use that as justification for suppressing opposing view points. This is why students at universities attempt to and have no problem shutting down so many conservative speakers. They have a belief that whatever is said is going to be racist, homophobic, etc and therefore needs to be suppressed.

Liberals are tolerant as long as you believe as they do.

From what I've seen, conservatives are far less oppressive when it comes to opposing viewpoints.

Conservatives tend to follow the viewpoint that "I don't care what you're doing, as long as it doesn't affect me." Conservatives don't care who someone is, where they come from, or what they are doing, as long as it's not interfering negatively with daily life. Essentially tolerance of the most honest kind - let everyone get on with their own thing, live and let live.

Liberals tend to screech "I WILL MAKE YOU TOLERATE ME OR ELSE! I WILL RUB YOUR FACE IN ALL THE TOLERANCE! I WILL FORCE MY WAY INTO YOUR HOUSE, YOUR WORK, AND YOUR LIFE UNTIL YOU TOLERATE EVERYTHING I TELL YOU TO TOLERATE! IF I EVEN SUSPECT YOU MIGHT BE RESISTING ME IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, I WILL DESTROY YOU! EVERYTHING WILL BE TOLERATED - EXCEPT DISAGREEMENT WITH ME!"

It should come as no surprise that these two groups do not get alone.

This has to do with diametrically opposed ideologies more than open mindedness. Any group will be more open minded to what fits their own ideology and less open minded about what does not. That would be intolerance. Either side could be open minded about the opposing ideas of the other, but they don't have to like, believe or follow those ideas just because they were open to them. In my opinion that is more like tolerance.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: ketsuko

I don't think it's been any big secret that Liberals and the Left are intolerant of people that are racist, sexist, nationalist, supremacist, homo and trans-phobic. We're not in denial of it either.

On the other hand, I have seen self-professed liberals recklessly label people as racist, sexist, nationalist, supremacist, homo and trans-phobic without any basis, whatsoever. I've seen some seize on one lone statement, or a vote someone has cast, in order to justify that kind of divisive, destructive labeling.

In fact, I've been unfairly called a few of those things despite the totality of my life telling a very different story. Do I have work to do on conquering my own prejudices? Of course. EVERYONE does but few will admit it.

I have no appreciation for the intolerance and closed-mindedness of anyone who exploits feelings of social injustice to score political points by wrongly judging what's in another person's heart...

...and then pats his/herself on the back for being 'tolerant,' 'enlightened,' and/or 'open-minded.'

I think the OP is correct, both sides are equally closed-minded and prejudiced.

ETA: Or that is my experience as an independent.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Think about that. You claim to be and value being open-minded, right? So how do you react when you encounter someone whose values don't align with your own?

Liberals are not open minded. I totally agree. Tolerance is treating black people as equal human beings. Tolerance is not calling Sikhs "ragheads" when they are not even Arabs. Tolerance would be a white policeman not stopping a black driver without having any cause. Tolerance would be allowing American Muslims to practice their religion in peace. Tolerance would be having an equal number, or at least a few, women CEOs instead of none.

What liberals are NOT tolerant of is intolerance. To say liberals are intolerant to conservatives because they will not tolerate intolerance is okay to most liberals. Most liberals do not accept the conservatives argument that liberals are intolerant to conservatives. Because when conservatives make this claim they never use a concrete example.

For once I would like to hear some right winger have enough back bone and actually say what they want to be able to do. For once I want to hear some say, "I want to use the N word and if you don't let me you are being intolerant." Instead we have these lame roundabout arguments "liberals are just as bad as conservatives" BS.

If you want to be racist and freely use the N word then have some backbone and just state what you want.

a reply to: ketsuko

You are wrong. I totally understand your view of abortion. I am personally against abortion myself, but I am open-minded and tolerant enough to know that other people may feel abortion is the best solution for them personally. I'm against forcing someone to go along with my personal view of abortion.

I do not harbor prejudice against the religious simply for being religious. I feel the same way about Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. What I have a problem with is when people use religion as their justification for trying to take away other's civil and human rights. In America, that mostly happens with Christian groups rather than Muslim or Jewish groups.

a reply to: ketsuko

I think the problem is that we have to allow people to live their lives as long as it doesn't interfere with our own. This is tolerance. I may not want to hang out with gays or Muslims, but I don't spend any time making their lives more difficult.

I tolerate their existence and rarely give them a second thought.

This is the essence of tolerance.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Maybe a lot of those people don't want to use the 'n word' but are also not equipped to state exactly their feelings. It's not like this nation has ever been able to speak honestly about issues of racism. There is a racial divide in America, and people are not allowed to discuss it earnestly.

As soon as someone makes a verbal faux pas or struggles to find the appropriate words...some self-righteous person, who exploits feelings of racial injustice, comes along and swears what they would like to say is the 'n-word.'

Exploitation is the worst kind of racism, IMO.

originally posted by: dfnj2015.

For once I would like to hear some right winger have enough back bone and actually say what they want to be able to do.

Incredibly easy. I want to judge people on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

If I try that, however, then according to liberals I'm not being tolerant.

What is really amazing, is that liberals will perform an olympic gold medal-winning performance of mental gymnastics to avoid seeing the irony of this.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

My mom taught me when I was really young and realizing that some people didn't like black people that if you're truly not racist you don't have to fret so much about what you're saying.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

With all due respect, please give me a concrete example of when liberals are intolerant that isn't some meta-argument.

If you just want to say the N word then do it. We already know Obama was a Muslim and gay. Because we all know being gay and Muslim is the worse possible human condition.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: MotherMayEye

My mom taught me when I was really young and realizing that some people didn't like black people that if you're truly not racist you don't have to fret so much about what you're saying.

No offense to your mom, I see what she was trying to teach you, but a lot of discussion about racism happens on the internet where the people discussing don't know one another well enough to give a pass to an unfortunately worded thought.

There is a deep racial divide, in the U.S., and it is growing. Discussing it is fretful because these are sensitive matters. I don't want to say anything that will hurt or offend someone and/or be seized on to unfairly label me as racist

My BFF is a white social worker and has an adopted black son and takes full-time care of two black grandsons. We have frank conversations, all the time, because we both know that we can get to the nitty gritty of these issues without fear of being wrongly judged. In the world of the internet, if you aren't fretting a little bit, then I doubt you deeply care to discuss things in earnest, at all.