A gnostic interpretation of the Virgin birth of Jesus

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: rickymouse
Jesus seemed to be a really good guy. He was filled to the rim with the Holy Spirit. I don't care if it was a virgin birth, his messages seem to be pretty good messages and if everyone followed his ways, this would be a nice planet. But of course, Religions twisted his words over the years, and Governments throughout history were pushing the religions to do their bidding or they would kill the members. Religions were forced to make pacts with rulers of Nations throughout history.

Lets concentrate on trying to make Jesus's real intentions create a great society. Oh yeah, that would almost be true communism or pure socialism, that won't ever happen. Time to come down off my fantasy cloud and get another cup of mud.

Actually no, Jesus intentions was to sacrifice himself for the payment for sin. For you and I so that we could enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus's kingdom is not of this earth, not until he returns to this earth for the millennial reign and that will be a just kingdom under his rule.

But skip the going to heaven dream, why can't we just make this place more like heaven. A place where we can all live symbiotically and kill off all those who try to rob us

Because all flesh is corrupt.

But the Hebrew word for sin does not always mean corrupt, it depends on the underlying word. It means we mess up basically. www.cbcg.org...

It means we do not listen properly, we are stubborn and we need to learn on our own. Adam did learn what he did wrong, the hard way.

a reply to: madmac5150

Buried by Monks and found by a man named Mohammed.

As were ​the Dead Sea Scrolls, a Bedouin shepherd named Mohammed. Which have nothing to do with the Essenes btw, that was a pre-concieved biased notion that was forced on scholars who are rejecting it today, even in my current translation it is disputed because they have like 6 names for their community and none remotely like the Essenes who were pacifists and these people war obsessed, with Rome.

The word Essenes doesn't exist outside the Greek and whatever now translated into languages like English, not in any Hebrew or Aramaic or Semitic tongue.

originally posted by: madmac5150
How many lies have we been told throughout history? I believe that the true story of Christianity was buried with the Gnostics. Evidence points to the fact that Christ was an Essene. An esoteric Jew. "Yahweh", the God of the Jewish faith, claimed to create us, and used Moses to enact his laws. Yahweh required blood sacrifices. They made a pact...

Christ changed everything. Yahweh was a God of blood and destruction. Christ introduced the idea that we we all brothers.

"Love each other, as I have loved you...."

Pretty much says it all.

From studying history on this subject, I agree with your interpretation. Jesus actually started a whole new religion. It is the same god. Jesus would have been a Messiah, one that is filled with the holy spirit.

a reply to: rickymouse


It is recorded in the Bible and history that the Nazarenes did not start a new religion but believed Jesus (pbuh) fulfilled their own religion of Judaism, called Nazarene Judaism and not "Christianity" by anyone Judahite, regarding the Gospels and Acts which is by a Syrian who assigns its origin to Antioch which is no guarantee that it was the Jerusalem based community of James and Simon-Peter, or historical. The epistles are all late enough to have been altered or pseudepigraphal and many believe they are on one or both account/s.

Historically the Nazarenes and Ebionites were declared heretics in the 5th and as early as the 2nd century (Ebonites, Iranaeus, Nazarenes and Ebionites by Epiphanius, 5th century) for "keeping the Law of Moses" and staying Judahite/Israelite in most respects.

Which means they were a persecuted minority of Jews and the Romans imposters.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: madmac5150
How many lies have we been told throughout history? I believe that the true story of Christianity was buried with the Gnostics. Evidence points to the fact that Christ was an Essene. An esoteric Jew. "Yahweh", the God of the Jewish faith, claimed to create us, and used Moses to enact his laws. Yahweh required blood sacrifices. They made a pact...

Christ changed everything. Yahweh was a God of blood and destruction. Christ introduced the idea that we we all brothers.

"Love each other, as I have loved you...."

Pretty much says it all.

From studying history on this subject, I agree with your interpretation. Jesus actually started a whole new religion. It is the same god. Jesus would have been a Messiah, one that is filled with the holy spirit.

I was a devout Catholic for decades. I bought into all of it. You can only confess your sins to a priest, and all of that nonsense. Structure. Control. Discipline.

The rules of a Roman culture. The rules of a kingdom. The rules of a control system.

Christ only gave us 2 rules; those two rules could redeem us all.

1. Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...

2. Love each other, as I have loved you.

Simple. Elegant. Perfect.

THAT is Christ's ultimate message...

THAT is the Gnostic secret...

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: infolurker

Consequently the fact that some writers do not mention the virgin conception of Christ does not in any way prove they rejected the doctrine or knew nothing of it.

I do not accept that at all. Logically there's a possibility that a UFO has landed all our backyards because none of us have mentioned or denied it (scientifically thats more feasible than a virgin birth). But human nature being as it is, we would scream the house down, if a UFO did land our backyards. So of cause Paul would have used the virgin birth to empower his mission. But both Matthew and Luke are estimated to have been written after ~90AD by anonymous writers so the story of the virgin birth was not created until after Pauls death.

Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life (no idea why I added this but it does sound cool).

Accept what.... the other two gospels do not mention Yashua's early life at all.

Let me ask you a question, are you a real Gnostic?

Do you believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was trying to help Adam and Eve escape the clutches of their oppressive Creator? To share with humanity the secret knowledge that they are, in fact, divine?

Does Gnosticism recognize sin or the need for salvation?

So you believe Gnosticism can bring the fire of knowledge to people and make them gods themselves? )the original lie of the garden of Eden)

Let me ask you a question, are you a real Gnostic?

No, I seek truth, not interested in labels.

Do you believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was trying to help Adam and Eve escape the clutches of their oppressive Creator? To share with humanity the secret knowledge that they are, in fact, divine?

The Torah has an incredible amount of symbolism that is difficult to decipher. The snake if I am not mistaken represents our ego. In seeking material pleasure instead of spiritual enlightenment (GOD gave us free choice). We slid down the tree so to speak. But Jewish Kabbalah (as well as Buddhism etc) explains that our souls remain in an enlightened state whilst we dream on these materialistic planes. Kabbalah also tells a similar concept to Jesus on how to awaken.

Does Gnosticism recognize sin or the need for salvation

Judiasm itself doesn't believe in original sin. So if Jesus was a Torah abiding Jew, he did not die as human sacrifice. I like to think Jesus showed us the road home. His final teaching perhaps, don't even let fear of death sway you away from the path.

So you believe Gnosticism can bring the fire of knowledge to people and make them gods themselves?

If we all become one with GOD. Perhaps it results in the final death of our self. Who Knows, perhaps beyond our human comprehension.

originally posted by: glend

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: infolurker

Consequently the fact that some writers do not mention the virgin conception of Christ does not in any way prove they rejected the doctrine or knew nothing of it.

I do not accept that at all. Logically there's a possibility that a UFO has landed all our backyards because none of us have mentioned or denied it (scientifically thats more feasible than a virgin birth). But human nature being as it is, we would scream the house down, if a UFO did land our backyards. So of cause Paul would have used the virgin birth to empower his mission. But both Matthew and Luke are estimated to have been written after ~90AD by anonymous writers so the story of the virgin birth was not created until after Pauls death.

Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life (no idea why I added this but it does sound cool).

Accept what.... the other two gospels do not mention Yashua's early life at all.

Let me ask you a question, are you a real Gnostic?

Do you believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was trying to help Adam and Eve escape the clutches of their oppressive Creator? To share with humanity the secret knowledge that they are, in fact, divine?

Does Gnosticism recognize sin or the need for salvation?

So you believe Gnosticism can bring the fire of knowledge to people and make them gods themselves? )the original lie of the garden of Eden)

Let me ask you a question, are you a real Gnostic?

No, I seek truth, not interested in labels.

Do you believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was trying to help Adam and Eve escape the clutches of their oppressive Creator? To share with humanity the secret knowledge that they are, in fact, divine?

The Torah has an incredible amount of symbolism that is difficult to decipher. The snake if I am not mistaken represents our ego. In seeking material pleasure instead of spiritual enlightenment (GOD gave us free choice). We slid down the tree so to speak. But Jewish Kabbalah (as well as Buddhism etc) explains that our souls remain in an enlightened state whilst we dream on these materialistic planes. Kabbalah also tells a similar concept to Jesus on how to awaken.

Does Gnosticism recognize sin or the need for salvation

Judiasm itself doesn't believe in original sin. So if Jesus was a Torah abiding Jew, he did not die as human sacrifice. I like to think Jesus showed us the road home. His final teaching perhaps, don't even let fear of death sway you away from the path.

So you believe Gnosticism can bring the fire of knowledge to people and make them gods themselves?

If we all become one with GOD. Perhaps it results in the final death of our self. Who Knows, perhaps beyond our human comprehension.

Christ's true message, was that we need no intermediary. No clergy. No pope. No priests. No bishops. If we look inward, we can find the spark of Christ within ourselves. We can ask forgiveness for our sins on our own. We can commune with Christ without the sanction of the Catholic Church.

The spirit of Christ lives within each and every one of us... we just need to learn how to listen to that voice.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: madmac5150

Interesting fact, in Gospel of the Hebrews according to several Church fathers, ante-Nicene and right after including Jerome, it says quoting Jesus (pbuh):

"My Mother, the Holy Spirit...."

This is in Hebrew.

Jerome deflects by saying it is only because Spirit is fem. in Hebrew, which is true. But that would explain the use of "She" and not "Mother" and if you use the same logic with "Father" it should equally apply.

Clearly a flawed argument. Personally I don't think either are literal and that Jesus (pbuh) is being metaphorical. After all, it's "Our Father" too. And our "Mother" obviously too.

The early church suppressed anything feminine. Sophia. Mary Magdalene. "Sophia" was renamed as "The Holy Spirit" (genderless) and Mary Magdalene was portrayed as a prostitute. Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. She was a business woman. History supports that fact. She was a consort of Yeshua, the Christ. The Catholic Church demonized her as a prostitute, because they did not want women to be empowered within their power structure.

a reply to: madmac5150


Another message of Jesus, "Only God is good."

Which is both a factual statement about someone else and a response to someone actually telling him he was good. In a rebuke he asks, "Why do you call ME good?" emphasis mine obviously "Only God is good."

It seems people forget this, that it means not to worship Jesus because Jesus (pbuh) is not God. He denies his power IS his power when he says it is only because of God.

Yet billions of people, mistakenly and in opposition to the wishes OF Jesus (pbuh), worship Jesus the Messiah as if he was God.

I believe that position has been filled and only the Creator has the right to be worshipped as God, not even "His Word."

a reply to: madmac5150


Actually the name Sophia comes from Hebrew Wisdom literature like Proverbs and Wisdom of Solomon, Odes of Solomon and Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach.

It is believed that Sophia functioned as the Holy Spirit, though you will not find it in the Nag Hammadi texts stated outright and both are mentioned. Irenaeus states it outright though he is hardly reliable.

Sophia is two, and comes from Pistis, Sophia-Achemoth, upper and lower Sophias. Achemoth is from Chochma, Hebrew for Wisdom.

If you look at the Epistle of James he speaks of a higher and lower Wisdom too.

I don't believe Sophia was changed into the Holy Spirit because in the LXX Wisdom and the Holy Spirit were considered to be synonymous, as it is interpreted Kabbalistically today.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

fact I know that it was not believed by most Jewish Nazarene/Christian sects regarding the Virgin birth as late as the 5th century

Rabbi's would have noticed that Matthew 1:23 was a reference to Septuagint Isaiah 7:14 prophency. But the greek Septuagint Isaiah 7:14 mistranslated "almah" into virgin instead of "young woman, girl, or an unmarried maiden". So they would have laughed at their stupidity I imagine.

Some sites list Mary as 12–14 years old when she was pregnant (Joseph was thought to be much older). So it met prophency regardless of the mistranslation.

a reply to: madmac5150

100% Agree.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: madmac5150


Another message of Jesus, "Only God is good."

Which is both a factual statement about someone else and a response to someone actually telling him he was good. In a rebuke he asks, "Why do you call ME good?" emphasis mine obviously "Only God is good."

It seems people forget this, that it means not to worship Jesus because Jesus (pbuh) is not God. He denies his power IS his power when he says it is only because of God.

Yet billions of people, mistakenly and in opposition to the wishes OF Jesus (pbuh), worship Jesus the Messiah as if he was God.

I believe that position has been filled and only the Creator has the right to be worshipped as God, not even "His Word."

So who is our true creator?

Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament?

A jealous God. A blood thirsty God. That is the Old Testament. Sodom. Gomorrah. Destruction.

The Old Testament was included in the modern bible, for one reason. It was assumed, that if the Old Testament was included, the Jews would be easier to convert.

The Christ was not the son of Yahweh, the God of Israel.

The Christ is beyond comprehension,

...and the most amazing thing, is that Christ is in each and every one of us... we just have to learn how to listen....

Be silent, and listen.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: madmac5150


Actually the name Sophia comes from Hebrew Wisdom literature like Proverbs and Wisdom of Solomon, Odes of Solomon and Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach.

It is believed that Sophia functioned as the Holy Spirit, though you will not find it in the Nag Hammadi texts stated outright and both are mentioned. Irenaeus states it outright though he is hardly reliable.

Sophia is two, and comes from Pistis, Sophia-Achemoth, upper and lower Sophias. Achemoth is from Chochma, Hebrew for Wisdom.

If you look at the Epistle of James he speaks of a higher and lower Wisdom too.

I don't believe Sophia was changed into the Holy Spirit because in the LXX Wisdom and the Holy Spirit were considered to be synonymous, as it is interpreted Kabbalistically today.

Scriptures (Gnostic) say that Sophia is the mother of creation. She created us, without her consort's (The Father's) permission. Scriptures and old texts vary, but the fabric of our reality is known as "Ialdaboth", and the fabric of reality is corrupt.

We are controlled, and scripted from birth.

The Catholic Church has been lying to us for thousands of years.

The true Christ exists withing each and every one of us... we just need to search...

THAT is what it means to be a Gnostic.

a reply to: glend

This might be relevant for your search.

catharism

a reply to: Peeple

wow that's exactly what I have been searching for peeple. Thanks for sharing it with me.

I'd like to believe that as a Christian one should be faithful to Christ and his teachings and so his quoted words should be given the highest consideration. His apostles had their opinions and considering they were always questioning Jesus, even denying him, why should a follower of Christ give their opinions such high merit?

None of these posts are on topic (interpretation of virgin birth) ,yet non deleted.

Agendas, ATS got em.

a reply to: glend

“The king asked, ‘Who are you sir?’ ‘You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God’, he replied blissfully, and ‘am born of a virgin.’”

www.stephen-knapp.com...

“But I am a worm, and no man.”

before he became Immortal

a reply to: glend

Originally posted by glend
They were confused by other sources (Gospel of Thomas) that mention virgin birth. So have given the literal interpretation instead of realizing its gnostic significance.

I believe you are spot on here with your interpretations…It’s just another case of the Gnostic coded original, being turned into a literal version by the unknowledgeable early roman Church.

The virgin birth is indeed a metaphor for becoming born again…IMO

The virgin birth is about a divine Son being born…and that Son is our own Soul (the real us) which is what is given birth to spiritually. When this happens the Father/Spirit unites with Soul/Son and the 2 become 1.

The bridal Chamber is where the New Creation or New Son is given birth too… This is where the phrase “birthed into the Kingdom” comes from, and why the Holy Spirit has so often been feminised in various sources found outside of the Bible…

The Holy Spirit is really a label to describe the meeting between the Father and the Son…i.e. The meeting between the Spirit and the Soul. The Holy Spirit gives birth to the Son, symbolically and spiritually speaking…

This New creation is a Son who has now become One with the Father. It’s a new birth and a new Son, because the new Son is now aware of his/her divine connection to the Father. Jesus prayed for his disciples to become one with the Father, just as he was one with the Father…in John 16.

Originally posted by glend
When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].

Making the male not male etc…is to do with seeking the “Father”, the Spirit of God, which is neither male nor female. Making the 2 into one is to do with uniting the Spirit of God with the Soul. The Soul being the Son, which is the real you…


- JC