Malaysia says VX nerve agent was used in Kim Jong-nam assassination

a reply to: The GUT

In the Army for CBRN, we have to do through a facility wearing full MOPP and I swore there was a breeze. But within the environment we were operating in, a very weak version of VX was pumped in as our work environment.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
I'm not familiar with VX - does this mean the girls were wearing gloves - or does VX not work when splashed on skin?

Oh, yeah. Skin is just fine. They probably had on gloves. And the ''dispenser" was probably designed not to splash back.

Generally for close in work with some sort of topical, they put the agent in a transdermal carrier and you use something that might look like a nose spray bottle modified to throw a small tight stream.

Using Sarin or VX isn't unheard of in Asia.

In other places, if you just wanted to nab someone out of a crowd, it was once real popular to use an old school convulsant that had been the go-to before ECT became the rage.

originally posted by: Bedlam
Physostigmine? Or pralidoxime? Yeah, you could probably get the guy to the hospital on atropine but he's going to need some heavy support for the cholinergic crisis he's about to go through. Not pretty. And you're never quite the same after, even if they support you until you clear it. It causes subtle brain damage that's sorta permanent.

Pralidoxime. I'm a team leader of a Pediatric Critical Care Transport Team. Its truly a mobile ICU. Even If I knew right then and there we were dealing with VX I doubt that any regular EMS or CCT team has pralidoxime.

I would give the atropine and intubate. Control the seizures as best you can with the benzo's, maybe load phosphentyoin after securing the airway, and run as fast as the chopter will fly to the closest center. EMS would do it in a similar fashion but most are limited in terms of anti-epileptics to valium or versed (nasal).

We did talk about using plasma pherisis or CVVHDF to help with the cholenergic crisis but there is no concrete literature supporting it.

Your right even in the best case he would have permanent damage

originally posted by: The GUT
Are things getting ever crazier or is it just me?

Here's a pleasant thought from Wiki on VX:

Wonder how you get volunteers for that?

Um. Well, it's the obvious way. You get some Army guys you don't like, and volunteer them.

If you've got $7.99, here's a decent read.

The Army once decided to test organophosphates on people, lined up some privates and told them to take the secret injection for God and Country. And they did. So that's where some VX info comes from.

Also, and no I don't have a link for it because the cool header of the films was covered in 'classified' blurbs, during our particular extra training in CBW, we got to see some movies. I am pretty sure these were all done in Europe. But they didn't say. And in these movies, they gave lethal doses of various sorts of agents to people in little stainless steel rooms with the sorts of doors that have big rubber seals and don't open from the inside. So, somewhere probably in Europe, what I remember as being quite a few people gave their lives in a very rough manner for Democracy and Freedom. Really impresses on you that you don't want a big whiff of that crap, though.

Then there's this:

In fiscal year 2008, the US Department of Defense released a study finding that the U.S. had dumped at least 124 tons of VX into the Atlantic Ocean off the coasts of New York/New Jersey and Florida, between 1969 and 1970. This material consisted of nearly 22,000 M55 rockets, 19 bulk containers holding 1,400 pounds (640 kg) each, and one M23 chemical landmine

Actually, ocean disposal of VX isn't the worst method. It breaks down pretty fast upon exposure to saltwater.

These days, we incinerate it.

originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: The GUT

In the Army for CBRN, we have to do through a facility wearing full MOPP and I swore there was a breeze. But within the environment we were operating in, a very weak version of VX was pumped in as our work environment.

Thanks, Arnie.

Was is pumped in to check your MOPP? What tasks were you doing in MOPP?

originally posted by: The GUT

originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: The GUT

In the Army for CBRN, we have to do through a facility wearing full MOPP and I swore there was a breeze. But within the environment we were operating in, a very weak version of VX was pumped in as our work environment.

Thanks, Arnie.

Was is pumped in to check your MOPP? What tasks were you doing in MOPP?

Thats pucker factor right there. We did our civilian version of MOPP for Ebola training and they pumped albuterol around us to make sure we had a proper seal. If you tasted something bitter you were not properly fitted.

originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: The GUT

In the Army for CBRN, we have to do through a facility wearing full MOPP and I swore there was a breeze. But within the environment we were operating in, a very weak version of VX was pumped in as our work environment.

How long does it take to get into the MOPP gear? For us the closes we get is our Ebola isolation gear which takes 30 minutes with a one to one observer to don and 45 to doff. A coworker and I in our ebola gear. Its really like wearing a portable sauna

a reply to: Bedlam

I need some anti-depressants quick. I know enough about the MK programs, Ft Detrick, and Porton Down to have some idea, but that is crazy to hear and to imagine having to watch those films.

Maybe they didn't like me in boot camp then lol (extended AIT with my MOS) or maybe it was what they said, but after I received my shots after I got my orders for Korea, I shortly thereafter got extremely sick and broke out in purple splotches. I don't remember most of the 2 or 3 weeks in the hospital and barely remember they told me it was either a bad reaction or a bad dose.

Probably that was it, however, I was always rather slender framed growing up, but over the next year or so I bulked up a lot and always wondered about it. Late growth spurt or...

Thanks, Bedlam. I've always wanted to pick your brains, but now I'm not so sure I could handle it.

originally posted by: The GUT
a reply to: Bedlam

I need some anti-depressants quick. I know enough about the MK programs, Ft Detrick, and Porton Down to have some idea, but that is crazy to hear and to imagine having to watch those films.

It was...unforgettable. It was old footage from what looked like the 60s or early 70s, b&w (mostly) film, some with no sound. There was more than one place involved, because the rooms were of three or four distinct designs. After seeing the first couple we immediately deflected it by trying to pick the provenance apart and not really watching the thing as much as possible. But we never knew who these people were. At least one had some sort of banner in French right at first. All the people were white guys. In general they were pretty sterile in terms of identifying attributes. A few had on what looked like prison clothes but that doesn't mean much.

I always wondered about the place that did the film processing, all the really ca-razy stuff came from one lab which I assume is now defunct. But if you got some really bonzer film with people dying in it from aircraft accidents or giving it all for God and Country, it was always from this one place. I've never been able to find out anything about it, other than it was in Florida because that was always on the films. Probably Tampa, I'd expect.

...broke out in purple splotches. I don't remember most of the 2 or 3 weeks in the hospital and barely remember they told me it was either a bad reaction or a bad dose.

Probably that was it, however, I was always rather slender framed growing up, but over the next year or so I bulked up a lot and always wondered about it. Late growth spurt or...

Plutonium shots. Now you have mutant powers. I can turn beer into regret.

a reply to: FredT

Oh man, we did our basic dons at less than a minute. About a min thirty secs to get good seals, 3 to 4 mins if you want taped seals.

The difference here is that your going into a biological hazard, whereas I am going through a chemical hazard. My suit would have been ill prepared for that ebola.

Now I did go and get my HAZMAT cert done at fort leonardwood and donning a full suit plus air takes a bit of time and DAMN YOU SWEAT A LOT IN THAT WALKING OVEN. Imagine mass casualty exercise and having to lift 30 or more people out a building, course we took turns and hydrated...

originally posted by: Arnie123
Now I did go and get my HAZMAT cert done at fort leonardwood and donning a full suit plus air takes a bit of time and DAMN YOU SWEAT A LOT IN THAT WALKING OVEN. Imagine mass casualty exercise and having to lift 30 or more people out a building, course we took turns and hydrated...

So we practiced simulated care in a sealed room. You were basically expected to cover 8 hour shifts in an isolation room with people watching you for the shift. So we drop into referring facilities ED's to get kids all the time and ALWAYS have an audience but it was weird to have someone staring at you for hours through a piece of glass like we were on display in a zoo LOL.

Just doing nursing stuff one one patient was brutal I cannot imagine having to dead lift 30 out of an area

VX, wow. And I thought that the Russians favouring Polonium tea was bad...

a reply to: ArchAngel_X

Thank-you for that explanation. I was wondering why the attackers didn't just shoot the guy.

Something is not right. I saw a video of it happening and a girl takes a hanky and puts it around his face, if it was on the hanky, how come she is not dead. It appears that that may have been a diversion, who actually poisoned him?

originally posted by: Martin75
a reply to: FredT
Is there an agent present that they can trace to see what lab this came out of?

With standard syntheses, It would be difficult to determine where it was produced. Anyone can make it; not all can live through the experience as it is a harsh test of lab techniques. Given the target, North Korea would be a good guess.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Something is not right. I saw a video of it happening and a girl takes a hanky and puts it around his face, if it was on the hanky, how come she is not dead. It appears that that may have been a diversion, who actually poisoned him?

I understood that a spray was used. Maybe the hanky was to keep it in contact with his skin.

a reply to: FredT

The big question is how do you go to the bathroom?

a reply to: Bedlam

Some of that was likely done in the UK during the 50's & 60's at porton down.

It came out years ago here that we gased a few privates to death for the LOLZ to see what happened.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Its a little like making alcohol, in that the process determines the outcome. A little more time, a tweak of this ingredient or that, creates different strengths of the product. All of them will be deadly, but the difference will be how well they travel, how long they are viable once released, how potent the end product is, and of course, whether or not it is placed into a delivery medium, a solution of some sort, as in this case.

a reply to: SprocketUK

It IS bad.

VX is vicious stuff, but even a weakened dose (rather than a full scale city killer) will kill an individual with a quickness. The Russian method however, produces a long and torturous death, hollows a person out over a period of days, particularly if they seek medical attention. Also, unlike this VX attack, which appears to have featured a very weak version of VX, which does not appear to have put any at risk other than the delivery woman and the target, the Russian method contaminates the area in which it is delivered with a radioactive material, which, if left unidentified, would mean exposing everyone who goes in or out of the location, to the radiation. Over time, that method could have killed a damned sight more people than it did, if it had gone undetected.

While VX is no laughing matter, I would rather go the way that Lil Kims half brother went, than go the way that Alexander Litvinenko did.