The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth

What has been published in recent years as The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth and is generally the least known has the best actual claim to involve such, a work of the early Ptolomaic period the primary function of which in my opinion was to instruct Greek scribes in actual Egyptian tradition, it's certainly the most complex and cannot be compared with the later Corpus Hermeticum.

The Book of Thoth, however, draws on cosmogonic themes, but for a purpose wholly novel to us: a metaphysics of semiosis, or sign-production. The Book of Thoth, as best we can understand it, presents a manual of scribal initiation.

The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth

Semiotic Metaphysics in the Book of Thoth

The Tradition of a Book of Thoth

It seems likely that the actual title related to entering a chamber of darkness as the work maintains the tradition that Seshat was the Goddess of writing, mistress of ropes to lay out plans and threads of fate, Thoth was more concerned with the related concept of the storing of knowledge.

The Ritual of the Regulation of Entering the Chamber of Darkness, and that it is addressed primarily to Seshat, Goddess of Writing. The Chamber of Darkness, since it is usually determined by the book roll sign, seems to be a conceptual topos more than a real location, At Edfu, Seshat is called “Mistress of the Rope, Foremost One of the Chamber of Darkness”;

The ritual instruction involves entering into the world of utter darkness, this in itself can also be taken as the realm of the imagination from which all creative thought emerges and that at the cosmological level, an invitation to enter into the realm of Kek.

Kky darkness is thus often associated with the Nun, the primeval oceanic chaos. In particular kky-darkness suggests lack of differentiation; which alludes to the precosmic condition in which “there were not two things”.

By means of the Chamber of Darkness, the initiated writer appropriates this night prior to any day: “My heart said to me: ‘Return to it, namely, the Chamber of Darkness, so as to learn its boundary’

There is an essential fluidity within this realm, and within it one can either swim or construct a boat to navigate across this region, one can harpoon ideas that manifest themselves as thought form, one can either net or be netted by such.

It is also the case that within this realm will be found the eternal spirits of those who went before, these can be sought out and their secret stores of knowledge accessed, something of a sandbox approach.

The Chamber of Darkness also pertains to the second externality, the underworld Through this aspect, the writer establishes a relationship with writers who went before and who are now ‘excellent spirits’ transfigured from their mortality to become pure spirits of enunciation

Effective is the one who takes possession for himself of the storeroom of the spirits.

The work is intriguing in establishing the connection between the realm of the imagination and the Egyptian navigation through the underworld, the traditional function of signs and utterances that would enable the successful crossing of such, they never actually explained themselves and this work itself must once have been considered for the initiated only.

“Writing is a sea Its reeds are a shore Hasten therein, little one, little one! Hurry to the shore! Count waves (or ‘difficult passages’). As for its body, it is a myriad , Do not be weak with regard to it (the sea) until its lord permits that you swim in it and he makes a perfect place (or ‘very fair wind’) before you

It was also seemingly expected that within the underworld one should produce gold, there is mention of coal to be found in ancient store houses which one can fire up to perform one's smelting operations, but the act of swimming through the field of reeds also has allusions through puns to gold, in some sense an expected natural derivative of one's actions.

Nb‘gold’, is the nexus of an important series of puns in Egyptian, all marked by the presence, sometimes straightforwardly etymological, sometimes allusive, of the bead collar sign.

The series includes nbi ‘to melt metal’, ‘cast objects in metal’, ‘gild’, and by extension to model or fashion something generally; nbi, ‘flame’, specifically the divine flame of the uraeus; nb, ‘grain’, perhaps metaphorical from its golden color; but also, intriguingly, nbi, ‘to swim’.

The floating mass of reeds that features in the Edfu cosmogony is also, one may note, called nbi.t.

In general the attainment is to realize that all things are written into existence from the realm of the imagination, and thus in a sense to realize what all things are actually saying, so by way of an introduction this gives a sense of what was involved.

The Egyptian rḫ-iḫy, “magician, scholar”, is preeminently a knower of texts, but s/he is literally a knower of things, iḫt, a word which has the determiner of a rolled papyrus, for it has been abstracted from particular things.

But this does not mean that the‘abstract’ object grounded in textuality is not ‘real’, or that particulars are only real in some deceptive discursive twilight. Rather, text circulates in the bodies of all things, and these things obtrude themselves, they are writing themselves into it all the time: everything

Any questions...?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Favorite thread in awhile - is the Book of Thoth distinctly different from the so-called "Emerald Tablets" or are they one in the same?

Still digesting what you've put together here - it's a fascinating topic. Thanks for putting this together - of all the great writers/researchers on ATS you seem to choose topics that are so intriguing time after time. Kudos to you Kantzveldt

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Interesting post.

I'm a believer in the rise and fall of civilizations far more ancient and advanced than current academics acknowledge. The Egyptian Book of Toth has similarities to the Tibetan Book of the Dead ---- journey through the Bardo. Past cultures may have had broader acceptance of and achievement in other aspects of existence/energy/science of the mind.

I feel we've become split off from a connection to the universe that leaves us less able and potentially blind to our greater power. This leaves us vulnerable. We need to evolve, and I believe to do so requires better integration of our whole selves - as individuals and as connected beings.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Its been a while but I think I referenced this in my first thread I created on ATS. I think you said something about nib being the tip of the quill.

At any rate that thread is about the transference of gold from Egypt to Israel in the exodus being the transfer of wisdom and knowledge. Moses being a scribe who died on mount Nebo. Of course nebo and Thoth are equated later on. Moses being the new nebo or Thoth. The Israelites travelled through the sea of reeds to mt. Horeb aka serabit el Khadim which was a mining center dedicated to Hathor.

Anyway my point is that the whole exodus story is an initiation into the mysteries. IMO.

a reply to: FamCore

The tradition of the Emerald Tablets contains themes which are present in the Ptolemaic work notably the production of (alchemical) gold, and other traditions such as knowing the language of all things, though the original is not sourced that must provide the basis for such later speculations, and thankyou for your kind comments.

a reply to: zardust

That's true a journey through a symbolic landscape, and what was involved with the worship of the golden calf idol was something of an injunction against literalism, the book of Thoth presents fair indication and warning regarding the capabilities of Egyptian scribes and the Hebrews were equally dedicated and remain so as far as the power of the written word goes.

a reply to: SeaYote

It's a question of in what way were they more advanced and/or capable, there seems to have been a great deal of dedicated learning with regards to what was involved with creating sacred text , which became something of a lost art because they don't write them like they used to.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Any questions...?

Is it just me or is this a very very deep reality of thought .My imagination could not stand still long enough to put a finger on it and my eyes rushed towards the next answer ...Thanks op why greek ,why greek,why greek ...back to the thought game ....peace

a reply to: SeaYote

I feel we've become split off from a connection to the universe that leaves us less able and potentially blind to our greater power.

You must be right... looking at ancient civilizations, their writings, their beliefs, their engineering capability and obsession with the stars - this tells me they had a great understanding of themselves down here on Earth, and the heavens above.

Nowadays it seems the academics and governing institutions point to textbook science as the ultimate answer for everything, which it is not. There is much that can't be explained by science.

I hope we can find a way to reconnect with the Universe before we destroy ourselves and this planet.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

This is a very very deep reality of thought, and was written in Egyptian Hieratic and Demotic script to retain the nuances of the complex tradition involved, even though i consider it was created to instruct the Ptolemaic court in the basics of Egyptian tradition.

One day as he was studying what is carved on the walls in one of the most ancient shrines of the gods, he heard a priest laugh mockingly and say, "All that you read there is but worthless. I could tell you where lies the Book of Thoth, which the god of wisdom wrote with his own hand. When you have read its first page you will be able to enchant the heaven and the earth, the abyss, the mountains and the sea; and you shall know what the birds and the beasts and the reptiles are saying. And when you have read the second page your eyes will behold all the secrets of the gods themselves, and read all that is hidden in the stars."

a reply to: Kantzveldt

1st Enoch and the watchers request pops into my mind and it seem as though they thought they could work out the death sentence ...just thinking

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: SeaYote

I feel we've become split off from a connection to the universe that leaves us less able and potentially blind to our greater power.

You must be right... looking at ancient civilizations, their writings, their beliefs, their engineering capability and obsession with the stars - this tells me they had a great understanding of themselves down here on Earth, and the heavens above.

Nowadays it seems the academics and governing institutions point to textbook science as the ultimate answer for everything, which it is not. There is much that can't be explained by science.

I hope we can find a way to reconnect with the Universe before we destroy ourselves and this planet.

100% Agree !!! - Particularly with your last sentence.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Its been a while but I think I referenced this in my first thread I created on ATS. I think you said something about nib being the tip of the quill.

At any rate that thread is about the transference of gold from Egypt to Israel in the exodus being the transfer of wisdom and knowledge. Moses being a scribe who died on mount Nebo. Of course nebo and Thoth are equated later on. Moses being the new nebo or Thoth. The Israelites travelled through the sea of reeds to mt. Horeb aka serabit el Khadim which was a mining center dedicated to Hathor.

Anyway my point is that the whole exodus story is an initiation into the mysteries. IMO.

Excellent thinking. Some Jewish traditions claim that Abraham acquired some of his mystical knowledge from Hermes Thrice Great (Kybalion). Who may have been the original source for the book of thoth. So it is possible the exodus was an initiation into the spiritual world. Never thought of it that way, but it does make sense.

Kantzveldt ...
The book of thoth has parralells to the great darkness in eastern religion meditations. With a mix with Shamanism to boot. So it has nothing to do with imaginations. Its a book about breaking through our physical world into spiritual worlds. To access knowledge that couldn't be accessed by normal means. Allowing Egypt to rise high out of the ignorance of man. Beginning a new world.

a reply to: glend

I still think some imagination is required, for example the vulture has a prominent place in the Book of Thoth and Shamanism in general involves such birds as avatars, in some sense this must relate to re-cycling or as directly relating to scribal pursuits plagiarism.

The uraeus and the vulture are thus both identified with the production of text in the properly theophanic sense.

“The vulture has protected Nun… so as to cause the earth to overflow through its work.”

The vulture here perhaps embodies the investment, so to speak, of the primordial flux of Nun in the text, which can pour forth to inundate and fructify the earth. Hence the vulture is effectively associated with texts both as the repository of the precosmic chaos, and as the furthest development of the cosmogonic opus, as symbolized by the fiery uraeus cobra, who defends the constituted cosmic order from inimical forces.

The vulture is suited to its unique position perhaps by virtue of its position in the ecosystem as the greatest of the carrion eaters. Given the ambivalence Egyptian thought evinces to the eating of flesh, the carrion eater may have been regarded as occupying the moral summit of the food-chain.

This may shed light on the otherwise obscure tendency for ‘human’ to be written sometimes with a vulturehead.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

its a shame that threads like
" is the far right normalizing paedophilia "
gets more attention
and probably more flags than this

I would just quit if I were you
your threads are great
but lets face it
most people just come here to argue with each other

S&F

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
What has been published in recent years as The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth and is generally the least known has the best actual claim to involve such, a work of the early Ptolomaic period the primary function of which in my opinion was to instruct Greek scribes in actual Egyptian tradition, it's certainly the most complex and cannot be compared with the later Corpus Hermeticum.

I think I would disagree, here. The Ptolemaic courts were Greek and the idea was to make Egypt truly Greek except for the peasants and the military. Greek was spoken in the courts and there were cities where the Egyptians were allowed only as slaves or servants or traders. There was no need to teach scribes Egyptian tradition - evidence shows that from the New Kingdom onward, the population was increasingly literate and while scribes achieved a high status, it was not an initiatory one.

No copies of the Book of Thoth (if it existed) exist, and the idea that it was an initiatory text is late Greek Mystery School at most.

The Book of Thoth, however, draws on cosmogonic themes, but for a purpose wholly novel to us: a metaphysics of semiosis, or sign-production. The Book of Thoth, as best we can understand it, presents a manual of scribal initiation.

As Assman (Assmann, Jan. "Death and initiation in the funerary religion of Ancient Egypt." (1989): 135-159.) point out, the Greek Mystery Religions were mainly centered around Osiris and Isis and in some sense the journey of the deceased until they reach the place of judgement. However, actual knowledge of this journey was common to everyone and they had written instructions and amulets to guide them.

It seems likely that the actual title related to entering a chamber of darkness as the work maintains the tradition that Seshat was the Goddess of writing, mistress of ropes to lay out plans and threads of fate, Thoth was more concerned with the related concept of the storing of knowledge.

Seshat was the goddess of surveying and writing. Her priestesses surveyed and oversaw architects and surveyors and recorded the speeches of pharaohs. She was a librarian and her priestess and priests oversaw the first libraries. She did not lay out the threads of fate.

The Ritual of the Regulation of Entering the Chamber of Darkness, and that it is addressed primarily to Seshat, Goddess of Writing. The Chamber of Darkness, since it is usually determined by the book roll sign, seems to be a conceptual topos more than a real location, At Edfu, Seshat is called “Mistress of the Rope, Foremost One of the Chamber of Darkness”;

The "book roll sign" means a concept, yes, and she greeted the newly dead (late New Kingdom)

The ritual instruction involves entering into the world of utter darkness, this in itself can also be taken as the realm of the imagination from which all creative thought emerges and that at the cosmological level, an invitation to enter into the realm of Kek.

This is some sort of modern invention that the Egyptians wouldn't recognize. Darkness was associated with evil.

There is an essential fluidity within this realm, and within it one can either swim or construct a boat to navigate across this region, one can harpoon ideas that manifest themselves as thought form, one can either net or be netted by such.

That's very imaginative and modern and noting like the Egyptian idea of formless chaos (that one can't navigate, actually)

It is also the case that within this realm will be found the eternal spirits of those who went before, these can be sought out and their secret stores of knowledge accessed, something of a sandbox approach.

Really really really modern.

The Chamber of Darkness also pertains to the second externality, the underworld Through this aspect, the writer establishes a relationship with writers who went before and who are now ‘excellent spirits’ transfigured from their mortality to become pure spirits of enunciation

Effective is the one who takes possession for himself of the storeroom of the spirits.

I have no idea where this comes from. There's no "storeroom of spirits." The ba and the ka reunite in the afterlife to become an Akh and if you give gifts to the Akh, it will come and talk to you and help you. And everyone knew this because it was written on the tombs.

The work is intriguing in establishing the connection between the realm of the imagination and the Egyptian navigation through the underworld, the traditional function of signs and utterances that would enable the successful crossing of such, they never actually explained themselves and this work itself must once have been considered for the initiated only.

This reflects a poor understanding of the Egyptian concept of the Underworld.

It was also seemingly expected that within the underworld one should produce gold, there is mention of coal to be found in ancient store houses which one can fire up to perform one's smelting operations, but the act of swimming through the field of reeds also has allusions through puns to gold, in some sense an expected natural derivative of one's actions.

I don't think you should rely on that source material. It's really off.

The Egyptian rḫ-iḫy, “magician, scholar”, is preeminently a knower of texts, but s/he is literally a knower of things, iḫt, a word which has the determiner of a rolled papyrus, for it has been abstracted from particular things.

But this does not mean that the‘abstract’ object grounded in textuality is not ‘real’, or that particulars are only real in some deceptive discursive twilight. Rather, text circulates in the bodies of all things, and these things obtrude themselves, they are writing themselves into it all the time: everything

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Favorite thread in awhile - is the Book of Thoth distinctly different from the so-called "Emerald Tablets" or are they one in the same?

Yes it is.

The Book of Thoth is actually a name given to a bunch of different texts by different authors - so there's really no such thing as an old Egyptian Book of Thoth.

The Emerald Tablets are an alchemical book (very short) dating to around 1500 AD.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: zardust

That's true a journey through a symbolic landscape, and what was involved with the worship of the golden calf idol was something of an injunction against literalism, the book of Thoth presents fair indication and warning regarding the capabilities of Egyptian scribes and the Hebrews were equally dedicated and remain so as far as the power of the written word goes.

You'll have to link to whatever ancient text that you're calling the Book of Thoth and show that it says this.

I have other arguments -- you're forcing a relationship and not paying attention to some of the other evidence.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Favorite thread in awhile - is the Book of Thoth distinctly different from the so-called "Emerald Tablets" or are they one in the same?

Yes it is.

The Book of Thoth is actually a name given to a bunch of different texts by different authors - so there's really no such thing as an old Egyptian Book of Thoth.

The Emerald Tablets are an alchemical book (very short) dating to around 1500 AD.

Relax, Byrd, most folks who delve into it, understand that this info is thousands of years old, and a collection that goes by several monikers.... arguing the nit noid is missing the point of the material.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

That is so freaking weird Kantzveldt.

While you were writing this thread I started a chatroom and like 50 or 60 people came in and although we talked about everything from quantum physics to etymology, mythology, psychology, ethics, cosmology, etc etc --- I started and guided the discussions with the topic of Thoth.

Of course my discussions were much different than yours, but we did synchronize today 100% on 'Thoth' being the central subject of reference. I could teach you some crazy stuff I discovered - but it'll have to wait - I am packing up and leaving my current location right now. I'll get back to you later k?

a reply to: Byrd

I like it when you argue on these specific topics.

I wish you'd argue with my sweeping seemingly illogical claims I make in some of my threads, because I'd love to explain those wacky statements I've made in depth.

Like did you know that I, me Muzzleflash, discovered that the word "Cause" comes from the Greek words for Cosmos/Cosmic?
The etymology dictionaries claim "origins unknown" after they trace is back to Latin.

But think about it. A Cosmological argument is a Causemological argument. So therefore it's Causemos and Causemic.
Why did I post this to you? Just Cause...

I came up with this one today at complete random using my basic theory of language phonetics which I'll expound further on in future threads.

a reply to: Byrd

Before you engage in endless nay saying i think you should familiarize yourself more with what is specifically involved, that this stands as a precursor to the later Mystery school and Hermetic tradition and involves an actual Egyptian text, that later traditions are based upon it.

Since its discovery was announced in 1995,1 scholars of Hellenistic and Roman religion have looked forward to seeing the contents of this work, dubbed "The Book of Thoth" by its editors, because of its promise to contain what may be a true Egyptian ancestor to the well-known Greek Hermetica.

The Greek Hermetica themselves consist mostly of philosophical and religious dialogues between Hermes Trismegistos--a Greek designation for the Egyptian god Thoth--and his students, and claim to be Egyptian works containing Egyptian wisdom... the publication under review is the first direct evidence for something in Egyptian literature likely to lie in the background of the Greek Hermetica.

Review of Book of Thoth

All the concepts that i outlined in the OP are derived from what is involved in the actual text, so what is the point in questioning would they really have indicated such concepts when clearly they did, it seems more the case that you perhaps haven't realized what was involved with certain concepts and are attempting to disavow them based on your own limited understanding, in a sense pre-judging what the Egyptians were allowed to believe.

The work presents a challenge because it is unique, the Egyptians not explaining themselves elsewhere, so i can only surmise this was for the benefit of the Greek court and to understand the Egyptian mindset.

Seshat was certainly a Goddess of fate and the cord ceremony was only one aspect of that and related to the notion of threads of fate;

She records the royal name at birth and writes it on the leaves of the sacred ished, or persea tree, at Heliopolis; she records the royal titulary at the coronation; she grants the king sed-festivals, commemorating his accession and renewing his sovereignty; she keeps count of the spoils brought back by the Pharaoh from foreign lands; and she marks the king’s lifespan by notching off years on the palm-stalk, an image augmented by a symbol signifying a limitless quantity, indicating that the king’s reign is eternal.

In temple foundation scenes, Seshat holds the string which is used to mark out the structure’s perimeter. This ritual, called the “stretching of the cord,” expresses her grasp of all the subtle forces that must be harmonized in order for the sacred structure to fulfill its function. In general, Seshat guarantees that rituals of all kinds are performed according to the instructions in the holy books. In Egyptian thought the concept of fate (shaï) is always imagined in connection with writing, and hence Seshat is a Goddess of fate as well, which in Egyptian theology paradigmatically involves reckoning the lifespan.

The string literally indicates what direction a plan shall take, what is fated to arise, it's a known association of writing/fate Goddesses.

Seshat

The waters involved in the realm of darkness are always those of Nun, this is not chaos as such but the primeval and certainly not evil, the challenge appears to be to establish oneself within them.


a reply to: kibric

I'm not sure quitting is advisable when afloat in the waters of Nun...

a reply to: muzzleflash

k you can get back to me later O Thoth enthusiast.