Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

originally posted by: andy06shake
As of yet we cannot unequivocally prove where consciousness originates or resides but we are beginning to make remarkable progress both neurologically speaking and in the mapping the processes of our brain in action.

The word 'consciousness' means 'awakeness'. You are awake are you not? Is there anywhere you have been where awakeness wasn't?
It is not some 'thing' that can be found - it is what all 'things' are made of!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

"The word 'consciousness' means 'awakeness'. You are awake are you not? Is there anywhere you have been where awakeness wasn't?"

Sleep springs to mind.

Actually it mean awareness not "awakeness". Some of us are awake more than others. Some of us are most definitely asleep. Ignorance offering up the modicum of bliss that she does.

"It is not some 'thing' that can be found - it is what all 'things' are made of!"

Its a construct that we don't fully understand, i choose not to make any suppositions considering our distinct lack of meaningful information pertaining to the subject.

Obviously more study is required before any definitive answers are to be had.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

It does mean that, but subconscious means " existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness ". If it didn't exist, there wouldn't be a definition for it.

originally posted by: andy06shake
Sleep springs to mind.

When there is dreaming there is still consciousness/awareness. In deep sleep there is nothing appearing - there is just nothing.
In deep sleep there is nothing and when the eyes open suddenly that nothing appears as everything.

originally posted by: ConstitutionalPatriot
a reply to: Itisnowagain

It does mean that, but subconscious means " existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness ". If it didn't exist, there wouldn't be a definition for it.

Has anyone ever seen a mind? Is it like a little box full of data - no one has ever found 'a mind' such as this. There are thoughts arising. Look at what is really going on directly.
Just keep watching thoughts arise. No one is doing thoughts - watch them and see.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

"In deep sleep there is nothing and when the eyes open suddenly that nothing appears as everything."

Funnily enough that's exactly when those eyes start permitting light to enter the lens, travel along the optic nerve, and be processed by our brains into meaningful objects and images.

In deep sleep there is still REM(where low amplitude mixed frequency brain waves play there part). Typically lasting about 90–120 minutes of a night.

Your brain is still active while you sleep hence the reason we don't forget to breath and die i imagine.

The other side being rather more active than when conscious which is rather interesting by itself.

originally posted by: andy06shake
Your brain is still active while you sleep hence the reason we don't forget to breath and die i imagine.

You are not doing breathing and you are not doing seeing or hearing - 'you' have no control because whether you are sleeping and dreaming or you are 'awake' - you are just aware of what is appearing.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

That's debatable thought and in no way a statement of fact based on any kind of empirical evidence.

My body is doing the breathing because the brain is sending electrical impulses along the nerves to tell it top do so.

Until science offers up a better explanation as to the process occurring i think i will stick to whats known rather than your explanation of the process, which lets face it, amounts more to a philosophical interpretation rather than logical consistent observations of the processes occurring.

That being said its still nice to spit bail the wonder of our conscious state of being.

originally posted by: andy06shake
My body is doing the breathing because the brain is sending electrical impulses along the nerves to tell it top do so.

Agreed - but 'you' are not doing it - no one is doing it.

Frankly, "free will" in a consequential universe is a misnomer. "Free will" implies the ability to do what YOU WANT. How many of you have actually done anything without a weighing of circumstance and consequence?
More often than not, circumstance dictates action, not what we WANT to do. That's not "free will."

a reply to: andy06shake

Evolution has nothing to do with us having the best experience. Evolution is survival of the fittest working alone the premise that the animals with superior genes will be stronger, more intelligent, or posses some other trait(genetic mutation) that allows them to breed more often/effectively or offers some other advantage than there weaker counterparts thus spread there seed/genetic profile more effectively.

You are correct, but evolution is also about doing what you think the most pleasurable option is from moment to moment. Or the option furthest from pain. That's how our brain are programmed.

a reply to: andy06shake

That's debatable thought and in no way a statement of fact based on any kind of empirical evidence.

Actually it is, and mostly neuroscience has explained it clearly. Every decision you make is completely dictated by subconscious processes. People don't even know what decision they will be making next until it happens and they become aware of it.

Decisions are already formed before they become conscious, but it takes a short while to for you to become aware of it. This is completely scientific.

a reply to: Andy1144

The processes at play and how they interact with one another never mind the rest of the 99.999% of the stuff we don't know about consciousness still make the topic debatable.

If indeed decisions are already formed before they become conscious(whatever that may be) that just raises even more interesting questions as to how the process takes place. Like i say its almost as if a form of clairvoyance or predetermination is at play that we do not fully understand.

a reply to: andy06shake

The processes at play and how they interact with one another never mind the rest of the 99.999% of the stuff we don't know about consciousness still make the topic debatable.

Based on you there is no empirical evidence for anything since we haven't discovered even 0.0001 percent of the universe, then that makes every logical evidence I state invalid.

Like i say its almost as if a form of clairvoyance or predetermination is at play that we do not fully understand.

I have experienced what I would describe is synchronicity, or clairvoyance in some instances in my life. In 100% of these experiences, they still just happened by themselves, like every decision I make. I never knew I would experience that situation until it happened. It all happened without my knowing, even my conscious decisions happen the same way.

a reply to: Andy1144

Based on me, what like personally?

Sorry im just not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Does not make it invalid, just means that there is a margin for error.

You should probobly consider the phrase "I know that i know nothing" which is a whole lot closer to the truth for all of us despite our arrogant attempt to understand reality.

Fact is some questions will remain unanswered because we simply do not have the tools or mental ability to comprehend the grand scheme of things, including ourselves.

a reply to: andy06shake

I agree, but disproving logical facts about the universe we live in because we know so little does not benefit us. You can say we can't disprove the existence of the Christian god, but what good would this do us? Lets work with what we have and make conclusions based on that.

a reply to: Andy1144

"I agree, but disproving logical facts about the universe we live in because we know so little does not benefit us."

I think you may find that it does considering any disproved logical facts generally lead to new refined theories that tend to open up new and interesting avenues or understanding.

"You can say we can't disprove the existence of the Christian god,"

Nor can you prove existence of such in any tangible way.

"but what good would this do us?"

The whole religion, just like the rest of our organised religiou, is ridden with control constructs and contradiction designed to serve a priest cast.

Depends what you mean by good will it do us, its common sense to attempt to root out impractical religious mumbo jumbo so we can address real questions without religious bias coming into play.

Don't get me wrong, i can entertain the possibility of there being a creator, or some kind of guiding force/group consciousness that helps shape reality. Just not one that requires our attendance and monies.

"Lets work with what we have and make conclusions based on that."

Best we can hope to achieve with the information available at this time, and with such limited perspective, never mind lack of technologies sufficient address the problem in any meaningful manner, is to work with what we have.

a reply to: andy06shake

I think you may find that it does considering any disproved logical facts generally lead to new refined theories that tend to open up new and interesting avenues or understanding.

Yes, but paradoxically using logic that we know.

The whole religion, just like the rest of our organised religious, is ridden with control constructs and contradiction designed to serve a priest cast.

You just made a logical claim which I agree with. But the thing is, when I make a scientific logical claim, you simply say we can't know anything for sure.

So I can say the same thing to you. We don't know enough about the universe yet to know if the christian god exists or not. You cannot be certain.

So you see how using this argument to disprove a logical claim can be pointless sometimes?

Best we can hope to achieve with the information available at this time, and with such limited perspective, never mind lack of technologies sufficient address the problem in any meaningful manner, is to work with what we have.

And concluding we have no absolute free will is completely inline with the logical facts we have. Every honest scientist will tell you that it doesn't exist.

a reply to: Andy1144


There are wys to prove that the God is real. Its just that People are not ready to hear it yet. The reason for that is because science is way behind in this Field.

a reply to: Andy1144

Buddy im not agreeing or disagreeing with you(per say). Its all just supposition really.

Your correct we don't know enough about the universe yet to know if the Christian god exists, or any other for that matter.

Just be sure of one thing, the word of God is not contained in the Bible or any other religious text that Man created with all his fears and fallibility at play, that's pretty much a given.

Maybe God is just a Boltzmann brain or maybe we all are?