The Trumpling of the Establishment in Europe

a reply to: DerBeobachter

Exactly.

It is the responsibility of every person of good conscience and sound moral, to be the boot across the neck of anything that even SMELLS like Nazism.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

#Triggered

a reply to: TrueBrit

Immigration is not our responsibility. Helping the countries get back on their feet, and helping undo the damage we caused is our responsibility.

Only an idiot shoots someones kids and loved ones in the head, then invites them to come live in their home where they sleep.

I fully agree our actions in the middle east put us firmly in the wrong, but inviting the people we've violated to come live with us is lunacy.

If someone was responsible for what we are responsible for, and it was my family that suffered and died for it, you'd be an idiot to invite me to come live with you, and I typically abhor violence.

There's doing the right thing, and then there's being an idiot. I fully support doing the right thing, I'm a firm believer we've done many wrongs, and am a firm believer we have a lot to make right, I do not, however, support letting people who rightfully and with the understandable emotional conviction and trauma to do kill and harm us come live with us. We have many bridges to mend before immigration is even close to an option.

a reply to: Puppylove

Exactly.

We have a debt with these people. But repaying it by letting them in so they can have revenge is the height of stupidity.

We owe it to them to help the survivors of those nations we wrongly toppled to help them rebuild and then leave them the hell alone to live the way they want.

a reply to: Puppylove

There is no better way to mend those bridges, than to bring people who need help here, where we can provide for them best, where there are not mortar bombs, roving groups of OUR proxy armies wandering hither and thither, killing for sport and raping anything that takes their fancy. Showing these people that the people of our country do not support the government which hurt them, giving them a chance to heal in the safety we enjoy every day, at the expense of people like them, would be a damned sight more advanced of a healing strategy, than any camp at Calais is ever going to provide.

What, its not enough to blow up their homes and wreck their entire region, we have to put them in UN camps on the border between their own ruined nations, and other nations who want nothing to do with them, to starve and freeze in winter, to thirst and burn in summer? Its not enough to murder hundreds of them at a time in drone strikes, we have to torture those who make it to the camps with constant hunger, thirst, cold or burns? Seriously? That is how you mend a bridge, is it?

a reply to: DerBeobachter

I see, so you are a tough guy complaining that your countrymen are cowards who are too afraid to stand up against "foreign elements", but you are also complaining about the people who do try to make a stand and organize themselves, because they are Nazis, and then you go on and fantasize about kicking muzzy teeth in.........

a reply to: TrueBrit

You are so delusional.

This "refugeecrisis" is caused by the current left wing establishment because they wanted Assad gone. I would even say they basically organised the whole influx. And even if you are going to blame prior wars, it was still a leftwing party no matter how rightwing you think Blair acted.

And your solution is more of it when the whole leftwing ideology is the cause of the problems we face?

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: DerBeobachter

Exactly.

It is the responsibility of every person of good conscience and sound moral, to be the boot across the neck of anything that even SMELLS like Nazism.

The irony.......

a reply to: AngryManagement

You are talking out of your backside AngryManagement.

There has been no actual left in politics in either my nation or the US for more years than I have lived. What we had instead was a corporate infested, corrupt dingehole, full of former conservatives, oil company shills and other assorted liars. That does not a left wing government make, which you know full well if you have any idea what the term left wing means.

And no, YOU are wrong. New Labour was not a left wing party, because it was peopled by folk who had NO connection to ACTUAL Labour values, which are all exclusively left wing. It was called Tory Light, or the Red Tories, by the actual left leaning voter base. It even contained members who were previously in the Conservative Party, which ought to tell you everything you need to know about how left wing they were. In short, if you think that New Labour were a left wing party, then you need to get deprogrammed before your brain starts falling out of your ears.

Left wing ideology has not caused the problems we are facing today, because left wing ideology has not been in control of this nation or, contrary to popular misconception, the US, at any time in the last four decades, regardless of what the name of the parties who have lead has been. If you think Obama and Co. or Bush or Clinton count, then you are sorely mistaken. If your policy is informed by corporate interest, you cannot, by definition, be left wing. Left wing politics is centered on the needs and demands of the people, EXCLUSIVELY, because from them issues its only power to affect change. The Refugee Crisis was caused by corporate greed, infecting the governments of the US and the UK through the Military Industrial Complex, a construction of, by and for the right. It was done for money, something that left leaning political blocks are not in the least bit interested in, when compared to pure notions, like morality, ethics, egalitarianism, equality, fairness, all of which have not been present in the politics of either nation since well before I was born.

Now... If you could STOP mislabeling the nonsense that has been the last forty years of foreign policy as being left wing, then perhaps we could move forward.

Left wing government, stalin's Russia perhaps? Maoist China? Venezuela as it it now? No thanks.

a reply to: markosity1973

I'm all for what the original idea of the EU was, long before it was twisted and mutated into what it is today and that free trade between nations and military defense (basically if one nation was attacked we'd all help to protect them) but that was it. Those are the two aspects that I support. What the EU has become, is something that Hitler, yes I'm going there, would be proud of. He literally had the idea of having all nations under the control of his Germany government and oh look what's happened, while Germany doesn't actually hold the title of the President of the EU it sure as hell has the most say.

All those soldiers who fought two wars to stop this from happening would be disgusted that this is happening. I will add that I voted out or Brexit whatever it's called and would do so again. The EU is becoming a moldy husk and people in charge are just holding on by the finger tips so yes I do think they're gonna try to punish the UK for leaving but there is one benefit we have and that's the WTO where a certain level of trade must be given to ALL and yes it's high but it protects us from being unable to trade with member states, they can refuse of course but I very much doubt businesses where we do most of our buying will tel their governments to go easy it'll cost them more than us if they try to go over board with it.

I'll finish my rant with this: Remember Obama put the nail in the coffin when he came over, no doubt after Dodgy Dave Cameron got him on the phone and cried to him, Obama came over and tried to threaten us by saying we would go to the back of the queue and if there is one thing you don't do, is try to tell an Englishman what to do by threatening him, we're to stubborn to be scared and will no doubt fight back.

The left have abandoned liberal principles in favour of the very principles that have put the world in ruin. They fear Nazis and the "far-right", and other political movements that will never happen, but remain silent in the face of the terror and the theocracy and the big government that is manifest today.

a reply to: TrueBrit

We're not getting just the people that need help, and those that do typically blame us, and rightfully so for their problems. You think them coming here and seeing how much better off we are than their homeland will make them warm up to us and forget and forgive all we've done and we'll all dance and sing cumbaya?

No bringing them here does not help them make peace with us, it's rubbing how much better off we are in their faces, while we still destroy their homeland and family and loved ones back home, while giving them the perfect opportunity to pay us back for all we've done to them.

a reply to: Puppylove

So the key then, is to stop doing evil in their lands entirely, prevent our intelligence agencies from funneling money and weapons into the hands of our proxies in the region, clear out of there entirely, and concentrate on making people welcome, bringing them into our family, offering them seats at our tables, and begging their forgiveness for allowing our government to run amok.

It is not to dither about in the middle, leave them frozen and homeless, on top of every other sin we have allowed our governments to commit against them.

a reply to: TrueBrit

You were right up until you started inviting them in. They need time to become stable at home, calm down, and heal before we invite them here to run amok while still nursing fresh wounds, hatreds and wrath.

If you want to have dinner with them, find neutral ground. Invading their home further to eat is not an option, and until a period of calming has occurred inviting them into our homes is no option. We need somewhere to meet in the middle.

a reply to: Puppylove

You cannot heal if you are starving, and you cannot do anything else when the only supplies you get are from NGOs that take more of the donation money for themselves than ends up in the mouths of the hungry. You cannot heal if you are living in a tent during the dead of winter, with no heating, no hot water facilities. You cannot heal worth a damn unless you are safe, and there is no where safe for these people, where they can trust that they will not be attacked, not on home soil. Either government bombs or terrorists threaten them everywhere.

Where are they supposed to heal Puppylove? At the bombed out hospitals? In the ruins of their homes, the bodies of the dead still smeared against broken masonry? In mortar craters full of human debris? Where are they going to do this healing, unless they are somewhere safe and warm, with people around them who care whether they live or die, whether they recover or are embittered for all time? Where is this magic supposed to occur?

a reply to: TrueBrit

If we instead of spending the money we do destroying their nation spent it building it up instead they wouldn't be suffering from all those things.

Look at what we did to Japan. Now we're great allies all because we helped them build back up and become successful.

You want to fix our relationship, we need to help them fix the damage we caused at their home.

a reply to: Puppylove

Yes, and while that rebuilding work goes on, but there STILL are no places for these people to go, for probably at least a decade or so, WHERE DO THEY HEAL???

Rebuilding is lovely, but these people need help RIGHT NOW, not in the time it takes to knock up a lovely little bungalow, with a garden and a water feature, but today, this very moment, NOW! The immediacy of the problem has obviously escaped you entirely.

a reply to: Puppylove

They want the state to exhibit compassion where they themselves fail to do so. They want the state to feed, house and clothe other people because they refuse to do it themselves.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Sacrificing our own safety for theirs is not the solution. The real answer that will actually fix this, which won't work due to too much of an uproar is to stop pussyfooting with the war/not war, actual declare war, take over, disarm the citizens and their military and the terrorists. Then provide security, build up their nation, feed them, shelter them, improve their standard of living significantly. Then once things are stable and they've had time to adjust to a better standard of living, back of and give them back their sovereignty. This requires staying for at least one full new generation to grow up in better living conditions. Still restrict their military like we did with Japan, and over time relax that as well.

We live in a different world now though, one where instead of doing what works, we instead try to make everyone happy with impossible compromises where no one wins. Sometimes the only path to peace and recovery is make sure there's a clear winner and move on from there.

As things stand, they are at war with us, they want us dead, and our way of life destroyed, same as we've done to theirs. We have only four choices, surrender and give them victory, perpetual war, win the war and begin rebuilding, or find a neutral party, back out, and work through that neutral party to both help them recover and help us mediate our differences.

All bringing them here does is continue the perpetual war while giving them strategic options to attack us here.