Here is What happens inside a Mosque

I just wish to ask again what I did earlier, since no one has replied.

Everyone keeps talking about the threat of mosques and how mosques are where radicalization occurs (despite, as enlightenedservant has repeatedly pointed not, the clear distinctions between certain branches/sects of Islam - one in particular - and others.)

So, what exactly is it that people want done about it? Putting cameras in every mosque? And do people agree that due process demands a warrant would be required to do this? And if so, that evidence must exist for whatever it is that justifies the issuance of said warrant? And that if said evidence is not forthcoming, said warrants cannot issue under constitutional law?

Or are people okay with just a blanket doctrine of all mosques in the country being under continual surveillance, with no warrant, and no evidenciary basis? These are serious and important questions if you're someone who wants surveillance on the basis of videos like these... questions no one ever seems to want to answer.

Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

As i wrote in an earlier reply, distinguishing between sects of islam brings us nowhere.
There is only islam, the different interpretations between islamists does not change this fact.
It is the whole tree that gives birth to this fruit.
We know there are differences, hence the instability in the middle east, suicide bombings, groups fighting against eachother, wars.
On higher level political power is at play and the fight for control over the region, in my view, the whole arab spring was nothing more than a push for control.
Directed by the saudis complete with fatwas which will of course be followed and if possible executed by the islamists.
Hence the days of Gaddafi were numbered, same applied to Assad until Russia stepped in.

The world is a dirty mess, that much is sure.

But this is about islam presence in the west, an incompatible environment due to democracy, man made laws, freedom of speech and equality.
I can imagine that many will have no problem to live their religious life within our borders.
We are wise and generous enough to give room, hence many mosques have been build, islamic schools opened, halal food in the stores, the azan is even audible in the streets.

What do we get in return? hatespeech and segregation with a large group being downright aggresive and living on the tit of our nation (welfare benefits)

It does not stop there, hundreds have been killed, thousands have been wounded in terror attacks, just for being westerners in Europe.

And now you ask, what do people want done about it?

I've said that in my previous reply, we are eager to see some self cleansing capacity within the islamic community.
If not? than it is probably because this is islam as it is meant to be.
Hence we should and must take a stance against it.

What will the message of camera's and surveilance be?.
Distrust, how can we live together on this base? we can't and we won't.
Either the answer comes from within the islamic community, or it is up to us to put a stop to this.
It is not normal to be living with a constant threat of an islamic terror attack.
It is not normal to just kill people because they are different.
But islam seems to teach and preach that, Put a bomb around your body, blow yourself up in a public place and you'll go to heaven.
Or take your gun or knive and kill a jew, kill non muslims until you are killed, you'll go to heaven.

originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: AceWombat04

As i wrote in an earlier reply, distinguishing between sects of islam brings us nowhere.
There is only islam, the different interpretations between islamists does not change this fact.
It is the whole tree that gives birth to this fruit.
We know there are differences, hence the instability in the middle east, suicide bombings, groups fighting against eachother, wars.
On higher level political power is at play and the fight for control over the region, in my view, the whole arab spring was nothing more than a push for control.
Directed by the saudis complete with fatwas which will of course be followed and if possible executed by the islamists.
Hence the days of Gaddafi were numbered, same applied to Assad until Russia stepped in.

The world is a dirty mess, that much is sure.

But this is about islam presence in the west, an incompatible environment due to democracy, man made laws, freedom of speech and equality.
I can imagine that many will have no problem to live their religious life within our borders.
We are wise and generous enough to give room, hence many mosques have been build, islamic schools opened, halal food in the stores, the azan is even audible in the streets.

What do we get in return? hatespeech and segregation with a large group being downright aggresive and living on the tit of our nation (welfare benefits)

It does not stop there, hundreds have been killed, thousands have been wounded in terror attacks, just for being westerners in Europe.

And now you ask, what do people want done about it?

I've said that in my previous reply, we are eager to see some self cleansing capacity within the islamic community.
If not? than it is probably because this is islam as it is meant to be.
Hence we should and must take a stance against it.

What will the message of camera's and surveilance be?.
Distrust, how can we live together on this base? we can't and we won't.
Either the answer comes from within the islamic community, or it is up to us to put a stop to this.
It is not normal to be living with a constant threat of an islamic terror attack.
It is not normal to just kill people because they are different.
But islam seems to teach and preach that, Put a bomb around your body, blow yourself up in a public place and you'll go to heaven.
Or take your gun or knive and kill a jew, kill non muslims until you are killed, you'll go to heaven.

are you purposefully being obtuse or are you maliciously being ignorant ?

would you like a hand in getting off that high horse ?

a reply to: 23432

I'm simply taking a hard stance against islam, with good reason.
One can simply not know when and where the next attack will take place, and how it will occur.
I'm quite done with islam!

a reply to: earthling42

If you really care about saving lives, you'd take a hard stance against cancers, heart disease, the flu & pneumonia, diabetes, etc. Those kill far more Westerners than Muslims do. In fact, you'd also take a hard stance against guns/gun violence, illegal drug use, abusive spouses, and abusive parents. Because those also kill far more Westerners than Muslims do.

In fact, you'd also take a hard stance against your own demographic because statistically speaking, your demographic has probably already done another violent "attack" against your own "side" while you were typing that post. Right here in the State where I live, self proclaimed Christians make up the vast majority of our population. They also make up the vast majority of our criminals, be it theft, armed robbery, fraud, shootings, DUIs, rapes, murder, or whatever else. Muslims rarely ever get in legal trouble here.

If the media reported the religious affiliation of every suspect and convicted criminal, people in the West would instantly see that it's not Muslims that are causing the problems here. If they showed the churches or gathering places of every suspect and criminal here, they'd see that it's not Muslims that are causing the problems here. If Christians got even half of the scrutiny that Muslims do, people would quickly realize just how much we're being scapegoated!

But some of you are so bigoted that you literally blame Muslims from all over the world for the crimes of every single terrorist. How can the Muslims in California be responsible for the crimes of a lone wolf in Paris, France? If there was a terrorist attack right now anywhere in the West, then all Muslims would be blamed for it. Again. Nevermind the fact that there are close to 2 billion Muslims, most of us have never met each other, most of us don't even speak the same languages or have the same cultures or denominations, etc.

Imagine if Christians, atheists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or any other religious group were held to the same ridiculous standard that you hold us to. The next time a Christian commits a mass shooting, let's see if they start investigating his/her church for possibly instigating it. And let's see if they clamp down on the immigration of Christians. You know, gotta keep us safe right? Like I said earlier, it's preposterous that so many of your "side" openly reject the Western judicial concepts you claim to be protecting ("innocence until proven guilty in a court of law" & "an individual is only responsible for their own actions").

That's why I openly say I'm on neither your side nor the terrorists' side. Because from my perspective, you're both full of bloodthirsty bigots that are fine with punishing, attacking, oppressing, and killing innocent people. One side calls them "collateral damage" while the other calls them "infidels". But both sides gleefully pile up the dead, the oppressed, and the scapegoated. And the ones who suffer the most are always the innocent civilians who are just trying to focus on their daily lives. Always.

a reply to: earthling42

Please answer my questions directly. So... cameras? No cameras? Surveillance? No surveillance? Restricting the practice of Islam itself in some way?

What is it you want done? Please give specifics, and how you believe the specifics you offer would be constitutional.

Peace.

I put my idea as land mines designed to look like prayer matts to the DOD, say there very intereted.
So it's promising.
Animals the lot of them.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Enlightened servant, my stance towards Christianity is no different.
Don't think that i don't take this same stance against those loonies who burned down a mosque this weekend in the US, i do.
You have been missing my point entirely throughout our little discussion.
We can be actively engaged against all that which you mention, it is just more noice, nothing more.
Again, i don't blame the muslims, i blame islam due to the fruit which it brings forth.
That clearly affects you, since islam is your religion.
But don't be offended, that is not my intention, my intention is to provoke a movement among the muslim community in the west.
All the attacks affected the notion of what islam is greatly in a negative way, hence trust is quite low.
It only adds to more segregation and thus a breeding ground for a violent conflict.
I hope you are starting to see now why my personal stance is as it is, this eventually leads to a clash if it continues.
Any action from westerners will only be seen as anti and against islam, so any answer must come from within islam itself.
The islamic community represents islam in its present form and pass it on to the next generation.
So the islamic community is key to representing islam as it is meant to be, hence the islamic community has a responsibility.
Simply cleanse islam of hate speech by preventing fundamentalist imams/teachers like in the video from indoctrinating the next generation.
Have qualified imams that teach islam in a proper way.
Teaching separation and hate towards others only prepares the ground for a bloody conflict.

a reply to: AceWombat04

Trust should and must be the base in our society, so no need for surveillance nor restriction of islam.
But that requires responsibility from within the islamic community itself, hence stop the hateful indoctrination by having qualified teachers and imams in mosques and schools.
That is what i mean with self cleansing capacity.

originally posted by: earthling42
Teaching separation and hate towards others only prepares the ground for a bloody conflict.

Totally agree. This is what the OP was about. Children in the UK going to Islamic schools and being taught to hate and distrust the "Kiffir" and those they should be living side by side with.

We can all talk about how Muslims are not like this, but many are. We can distract ourselves from the OP by parroting "well the West is to blame", or "you bring this upon yourself", but that's just about closing down debate. Besides, the vast majority of the blood-letting in the Muslim world today, as it has been historiclly, has been between different denominations of Islam and the rapidly dissapearing non-Muslim communities.

originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: 23432

I'm simply taking a hard stance against islam, with good reason.
One can simply not know when and where the next attack will take place, and how it will occur.
I'm quite done with islam!

You just regurgitated the same old-dead-horse-doctrine of fear without a good reason .

1400 years of growth as evidence is looking at you ; you choose to be afraid because fear above else is what motivates you.

peace be upon you .

originally posted by: stealthyaroura
I put my idea as land mines designed to look like prayer matts to the DOD, say there very intereted.
So it's promising.
Animals the lot of them.

oh , bugger off , will you ?

a reply to: earthling42

I'm happy to hear you are not in favor of imposing blanket surveilance on mosques. I continue to ask those who are my previous questions, though.

So then my question for you would become: what evidence is there that most Muslims in the U.S. don't already abhor the ideology you're ascribing to all of them? You yourself said

distinguishing between sects of islam brings us nowhere.
There is only islam, the different interpretations between islamists does not change this fact.
It is the whole tree that gives birth to this fruit.

... but as numerous instances of condemnation of terrorist attacks and violent ideology have been levied by prominent Imams and Muslim institutions in the U.S., and as much of said condemnation has been directed at Wahhabism and its outgrowths, does that not already demonstrate that distinguishing between sects of Islam does matter and is material to the issue here?

Is your stance that these condemnations are pretend? That Islam as a whole secretly reviles non-Muslims and in every single mosque or most mosques irrespective of sect/group act like those presented in this video? What is it you would like to see them to do "self-cleanse?" They already view those responsible as "a vile sect," they already refer to groups like ISIS as the Daesh, and the vast majority of U.S. Muslims have already lived here since long before 9-11 in peace with their neighbors... including active members of our representative government. Is it that you simply don't believe that?

So, what would you want to see done? What are your criteria for self-cleansing, and what would you have the country do if those criteria are not met in what you would consider to be a sufficient time frame?

Peace.

This hatred that they instill into the children, their community, towards non-muslims (Kafir) is exactly what I've been trying to tell people here for the last several years.
I'm sure the liberal socialists will say that the video is CGI, fake and promotes, the undercover producers own bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, and Islamophobia.
Libs and SJW's, welcome to the real world.

a reply to: Violater1
a reply to: paraphi

Ironically, both of your posts highlight why Muslim kids should be taught the Qur'an. As you should probably know, the Qur'an is divided into 114 Revelations/"Surahs", not into chapters. We believe these revelations are the direct words of God. Surah 109 of the Qur'an is called "Al-Kafirun" (The Disbelievers) and it is literally God commanding us on how to deal with "kafirs"/disbelievers. (note: The "-un" at the end shows that the word is plural, like the "-s" at the end of most English plural words.)

Here's Surah 109 Al-Kafirun (The Disbelievers) in its entirety (Pickthall translation):

1. Say: O disbelievers!

2. I worship not that which ye worship;

3. Nor worship ye that which I worship.

4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

That's the entire Revelation/Surah so there's no additional context for it. Any Muslims who aren't teaching that this is how we should deal with disbelievers are going against Islam, not speaking for Islam.

ETA: But now I can't help wondering what you guys teach in your churches & places of gatherings. Because judging by many of the posts in this thread and in other Islamophobic threads here, it seems like you're projecting your own venomous words onto us. I suspect that you're teaching your own kids and family members the same intolerance towards us that you're accusing us of teaching about you. Am I right? If so, it's funny how that works...

originally posted by: Violater1
This hatred that they instill into the children, their community, towards non-muslims (Kafir) is exactly what I've been trying to tell people here for the last several years.

so this issue of muslim kids disliking the West has nothing to do with the bomb which the very same West drops on them ?
Crusaders used to grill children and eat them while parents watched from the distance , utterly buggered by devil and in a state of disbelief and shock .
Would you like to pick up your luggage ?

I'm sure the liberal socialists will say that the video is CGI, fake and promotes, the undercover producers own bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, and Islamophobia.
Libs and SJW's, welcome to the real world.

Which real World ?
The one made in the Holywood basement ?
Enough with the self contraditory display of monumental ignorance pls.

Religion is a choice. It is about believing, and believing always comes down to individual needs and personal commitment.

God does not "need" to be worshiped or even to be served. We are free to reject him and we are free to even rebel against him.

Acts 17:23 - Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, He is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. 25 Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things.

People spend half their lives, fighting about who is right and who is wrong. Following the laws and the commandments of man. Lifting up men as Prophets and worshiping them and their word, while placing God and his simple ordinances on the back burner. They have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Any religion that holds God hostage and locks him away from the people unless they have tithed to an intercessor, is suspect to me. But as always, that is my individual and worthless opinion.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Um. Children sitting for hours learning the Qur'an by rote, so that they can recite it in Arabic, and being kicked and pushed around by the God Squad bullies, as in the OP's video is not my idea of an education. Kaffirs is an insulting term used by Muslims on non-Muslims and this is the case on the OP's video.

I live in a developed country where religion is a choice, women are not second class and education is about expanding one's mind and not stitching on the blinkers. I am all up for people following religious lives and being morally upstanding, respectful and tolerant of difference. I do not see any of those virtues being followed in the OPs videos. I don't see any of those virtues being followed in the Middle East and North Africa where Muslim on Muslim violence and brutality is very sad to see.

I am sure I am mistaken, and that in most predominately Muslim countries people are enlightened and encouraged to think freely, women are not second class, girls are educated and have opportunity to work and marry who they please, and from any religion they please, and where any Joe Muslim can say "nah, I think I'll not bother with the Mosque today as I thinks it's all a bit crap" and not face a brutal response.

a reply to: paraphi

You obviously see what you want to see and ignore what you choose to ignore. It's not my fault you believe the stereotypes you've heard about Muslims and Muslim countries, while constantly ignoring the truth when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

And ironically, your hypothetical fearmongering is yet another example of why people should actually read the Qur'an before spouting their conjecture about Islam. The Qur'an says in Surah 2, Ayat 256 that there is to be no compulsion in Islam (Pickthall translation).

256. There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

So once again, the Muslims who go against this would also be going against Islam, not speaking for it. Furthermore, perhaps you should try rereading my other post in its entirety. It's funny how you claim to know something about Islam while ignoring the actual words from the Qur'an in favor of your own make believe delusions.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
You obviously see what you want to see and ignore what you choose to ignore. It's not my fault you believe the stereotypes you've heard about Muslims and Muslim countries, while constantly ignoring the truth when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

Ah ha. Unlike most people on these Boards I am familiar with Muslim countries. I was born in one. The truth is often in the eye of the beholder, but if there is anything that I have said that is inaccurate then please point it out.

I have no problem with Muslims, Hindus or Christians, or any other religion for that matter. I believe that religion can enrich our moral compass and add flesh to some of the good people do.

I don't like what I see in the OP - the intolerance, the hate and the divisiveness. The abuse of children masquerading as "education" by people who purport to be religious, and probably believe that they are. I am also saddened by the immorality and butchery going on between Muslims and in Muslim countries. I particularly dislike apostasy and the treatment of women and girls.