Why can't God forgive Satan if he can forgive man?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Baptism of fire is NOT a judgement issue.

It's the blessings of the Spirit... Wisdom.

Fire is a symbol of wisdom.

As in Pentacost. Tongues of fire?

You are WAY off, but in Pauline Christianity learning the meaning of things is frowned upon unless it was told to you. And they don't comprehend anything mystical.

I know you don't get it and are married to your opinions, unfortunately, but there is no bad baptism.

Water, Spirit (wind) Fire + man (earth)= the four elements of antiquity.

It's deeply symbolic of something good, not bad.

Bad Baptism! Where do you get this stuff from?

You could use a better teacher.

Really.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I am also Muslim.

I take a more progressive view of Shaitan/Iblis, that he is not the enemy of God or the righteous but the cause of evil desire.

I believe his refusal to bow to Adam was planned ahead of time, to give man a chance to reject evil, otherwise we have no free will.

It's ultimately for our benefit as all Allah's plan is, and often leads people TOO Allah, for repentance.

Somewhat in the Jewish fashion, without contradicting the Qur'an, I don't feel like God would have been unaware that Iblis was proud and feel he planned it that way, so he WOULD rebel, making him perfect for his job.

Ultimately, the refinement of the earthly man and woman, preparation for living in God's Kingdom.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: ChesterJohn
...and the tactic of interpreting that which is meant symbolically as literal and that which is meant literal as symbolic, such as that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", Col.1:15, a common tactic.

Also compare Isaiah 5:20,21 (which is not quite what I'm referring to but the described behaviour shares some similar concepts):

Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,
Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,
Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes
And discreet in their own sight!

Well, now that I've added another comment anyway, I can finish approx. where I left off but skip what was already quoted:

...Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.—See GEHENNA; GRAVE; HADES; SHEOL; TARTARUS.

Source: Hell: Insight, Volume 1
Of course ignoring and/or dismissing it out of hand (and possibly thinking of an appropiate excuse to do so, not necessarily mentioning it out loud but for personal justification) is a lot easier. It takes a lot less effort, a lot less 'exerting yourself'. Luke 13:23,24:

Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.

Compare Matthew 7:13,14.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

TextDid you say Jesus/the Word is the Creator? I don't think so. He is a creation. The Word came from God, but this is not Neo Platonic philosophy it's Christianity and the Logos is not the Creator in Christianity. In fact a proper translation of John is "and the Logos was a god." NOT God. Different words, different meanings. God is Creator, not Jesus.

The reason I wrote as I did was to hope for a response from those who were not aware of the Nazarene faith. My reply is that once again you have misunderstood me or that I had not been clear.

No -- Jesus was not the Creator of this creation as He was Jesus. As He was Jesus He was divested of His celestial substance and was in the flesh of man. Jesus preexisted in the celestial realm as "The Word of the Most High El., but that substance is not reveled to us. The "Most High EL. is total spirit and not the Creator according to the Apostle John.

Moses unwittingly presented this in Torah as Torah has said that "The Most High" said to His "Word" "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" The Creator "Word" created man in the image of His Father and His Father gave that which the "Word" created Life.

John 1:1-4
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In choosing the MSS of choice, we use the majority of the over 5000 texts available. We also reject most other work that is corrupt in our understanding. We also do not use other philosophers philosophy to muddy the waters. When using the majority MSS we are very much aware of the need to remain faithful to our sources just as you do to your sources. Your prerogative is to use multiple sources to create your own belief while the Nazarene's of James had no need for that confusion.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

a reply to: ChesterJohn
You are WAY off, but in Pauline Christianity learning the meaning of things is frowned upon unless it was told to you. And they don't comprehend anything mystical. I know you don't get it and are married to your opinions, unfortunately, but there is no bad baptism.

Pauline Christianity is a misnomer and used exclusively by those of little understanding. Are you inferring that you have never been taught the meaning of things? Is it not you that does not comprehend the mystical Jesus and sought out Muhammad to replace the Begotten Son of The Most High? You need to reexamine your own grandeur and accept the overwhelming number of MSS that disagrees with your mystical mind.

There are bad baptisms and the NT verifies this. John came baptizing with water but Jesus came baptizing with the Most High Father. If Johns baptism was good then there would be no need for the Christ to baptize with the Holy Spirit. You also need a better teacher than what you now have.

a reply to: Seede

I don't believe it is a misnomer, it's Pauline Christianity.

Jesus has taken a backseat in modern times.

I am more concerned with you thinking the Jewish Messiah is the Creator of the Universe, where do you get such ideas?

God is the Creator. Jesus is the Messiah or "Word" of God.

Of God as in he came from God the Creator.

I think you've been told a fib.

a reply to: Seede

John's baptism was good, for repentance, which is definitely good.

So John's baptism is not an example of a bad baptism, just preparatory for when the Messiah comes to baptize with the Spirit and fire.

I repeat, there are no bad baptisms in Christianity. John was the forerunner to Christ is all, John died a horrible death and is a Saint and Martyr.

You sully his good name when Jesus said he was the greatest man who ever lived?

You have no sense.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: SethTsaddik

a reply to: ChesterJohn
You are WAY off, but in Pauline Christianity learning the meaning of things is frowned upon unless it was told to you. And they don't comprehend anything mystical. I know you don't get it and are married to your opinions, unfortunately, but there is no bad baptism.

Pauline Christianity is a misnomer and used exclusively by those of little understanding. Are you inferring that you have never been taught the meaning of things? Is it not you that does not comprehend the mystical Jesus and sought out Muhammad to replace the Begotten Son of The Most High? You need to reexamine your own grandeur and accept the overwhelming number of MSS that disagrees with your mystical mind.

There are bad baptisms and the NT verifies this. John came baptizing with water but Jesus came baptizing with the Most High Father. If Johns baptism was good then there would be no need for the Christ to baptize with the Holy Spirit. You also need a better teacher than what you now have.

Mohammed didn't replace God or Jesus, he spread the message of both and was not a replacement for anything, just the last Prophet.

Mohammed is not worshipped and didn't want to be, he wanted people to worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

He was very successful too, you should be happy people are worshipping
God instead of angry that they are not Christians.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Salaams.

I take a more progressive view of Shaitan/Iblis, that he is not the enemy of God or the righteous but the cause of evil desire.

Just for the record, the Qur'an says on multiple occasions that Shaytan is an enemy for us. Before I got bored and stopped counting, I located these instances: (2:168; 2:208; 6:142; 7:22; 12:5; and 17:53). The site I linked has 6 separate translations too, just to make sure there are no misunderstandings.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Sure, potentially he is an enemy.

But to the righteous he has no power.

The wicked are a different story, though they know it not.

I believe the Qur'an and Hadiths even have specific methods for dealing with specific temptations that can be used, as can every Word of Qur'an, to emerge victorious over Satan.

In the sense that if you know how to defeat Satan and do, he is not an enemy.

If you don't let him be an enemy he can't be.

It's the faithless who should, but don't, fear Satan. God even increases their ignorance sometimes.

Those who revere/fear God have nothing to fear from Satan.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

You're over thinking it. He's an open enemy to us, as is stated numerous times in the Qur'an itself. The first Ayat that I linked translates as this (Pickthall): "O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you."

The second translates as this: "O ye who believe! Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him); and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you."

The third translates as this: "And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you."

The 4th is God scolding the Prophet Adam about Shaytan & it translates as this: "Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?"

The 5th one is of the Prophet Jacob/Yaqub telling his son (the Prophet Joseph/Yusuf) something that translates as this: "He said: O my dear son! Tell not thy brethren of thy vision, lest they plot a plot against thee. Lo! Satan is for man an open foe."

LOL No offense, but why should any of us believe your theories about Shaytan when the Qur'an is pretty consistent in describing him as an open enemy of us? I didn't even post all of the Qur'an's ayats that call him our enemy, either.

Besides, I think you're forgetting something. Even if a believer somehow reaches the level of spirituality to where Shaytan cannot influence him/her anymore, Shaytan will still entice others to mislead or cause direct harm to that believer. It can be through rape, fraud, oppression, or any other form of sin. Shaytan would still be attacking that believer's loved ones, trying his best to lead them astray too. Shaytan would even still be able to influence the people that our hypothetical believer respects and listens to, like elders, favorite entertainers, fellow believers, etc. So our hypothetical believer would still have to deal with Shaytan's indirect attempts to mislead him/her.

Though for the record, I don't believe any of us can reach that hypothetical level of "untouchability" while we're still on Earth. I believe that we will continue to face spiritual tests until the moment we die, and Shaytan will be right there to try to mislead us at every turn.

Even if we reached some hypothetical form of spiritual perfection under one set of circumstances, changes in our lives can cause anyone to rethink their morals. It could be from financial collapse, being imprisoned, being physically assaulted or raped, the murder of a family member, a painful divorce, being in a bout of depression or mental illness, etc. In other words, humans are emotional creatures and even the best of us can be tempted by Shaytan when we're emotionally or mentally screwed up.

It's not like he would give up trying to mislead or corrupt us just because we're going through hard times. If anything, he attacks hardest when our guards are down and he has an opening, just as any enemy would.

a reply to: yuppa

NO because they will not remember any of them who were lost but will recognize those who are saved. A merciful god will give mercy to them by their new minds and bodies. So no it is not a contradiction.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You can't over think anything.

As long as I have a good grasp on reality and a healthy life I don't see a problem with denying Satan any power over me.

It's a matter of Faith, and thinking it through is the proper way to go about it and my conclusion is perfectly logical.

I would say you are over empowering Satan as something invincible but his destruction is imminent.

Ours paradise is guaranteed. Through Allah.

Salaam.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: SethTsaddik

You're over thinking it. He's an open enemy to us, as is stated numerous times in the Qur'an itself. The first Ayat that I linked translates as this (Pickthall): "O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you."

The second translates as this: "O ye who believe! Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him); and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you."

The third translates as this: "And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you."

The 4th is God scolding the Prophet Adam about Shaytan & it translates as this: "Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?"

The 5th one is of the Prophet Jacob/Yaqub telling his son (the Prophet Joseph/Yusuf) something that translates as this: "He said: O my dear son! Tell not thy brethren of thy vision, lest they plot a plot against thee. Lo! Satan is for man an open foe."

LOL No offense, but why should any of us believe your theories about Shaytan when the Qur'an is pretty consistent in describing him as an open enemy of us? I didn't even post all of the Qur'an's ayats that call him our enemy, either.

Besides, I think you're forgetting something. Even if a believer somehow reaches the level of spirituality to where Shaytan cannot influence him/her anymore, Shaytan will still entice others to mislead or cause direct harm to that believer. It can be through rape, fraud, oppression, or any other form of sin. Shaytan would still be attacking that believer's loved ones, trying his best to lead them astray too. Shaytan would even still be able to influence the people that our hypothetical believer respects and listens to, like elders, favorite entertainers, fellow believers, etc. So our hypothetical believer would still have to deal with Shaytan's indirect attempts to mislead him/her.

Though for the record, I don't believe any of us can reach that hypothetical level of "untouchability" while we're still on Earth. I believe that we will continue to face spiritual tests until the moment we die, and Shaytan will be right there to try to mislead us at every turn.

Even if we reached some hypothetical form of spiritual perfection under one set of circumstances, changes in our lives can cause anyone to rethink their morals. It could be from financial collapse, being imprisoned, being physically assaulted or raped, the murder of a family member, a painful divorce, being in a bout of depression or mental illness, etc. In other words, humans are emotional creatures and even the best of us can be tempted by Shaytan when we're emotionally or mentally screwed up.

It's not like he would give up trying to mislead or corrupt us just because we're going through hard times. If anything, he attacks hardest when our guards are down and he has an opening, just as any enemy would.

If I am over thinking it you are OVER thinking it as I didn't hit the books for proof texts, you did.

And that means you thought about it more than me. I am just confident from Faith and not concerned with satan.

You learn how to deal with temptation and live your life, satan is the concern of the unenlightened, the enlightened know about but don't fear, satan.

a reply to: Seede

the fact that the newly risen Lord that Peter speaks it is the prophecy of Joel, yet not one prophecy of Joel was taking place at the giving of tongues.

Because Israels promised kingdom was not being set aside for a time until they will recognize Jesus as Lord.

You are correct the words used in the AV say "as of fire" not "cloven tongues of fire". "As of" tells us it is a similitude but not the actual thing.

I made a complete example of it in the "Did Paul create Christianity" thread but the people there refused to believe the word of God.

Plus never are the gifts of the Holy Ghost ever compared to or being fire.

Other than a consuming fire that encircles God fire is always about judgement including when the Jews were to offer sacrifices on the fire. The demonic counterfeit was when Moloch asked for their children to be passed through fire. or sacrificing their children on the fire altars of Moloch something God never asked Israel to do.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Why do you want to discuss a book you do not believe?

You do not believe the word of God but your own holy book the quran but the preserved words of God say this and this means Jesus is God and Creator, the him in John 1:3 is the Word who is one with the father and the Holy Ghost

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You hatred of Christianity is evident in all your post

a reply to: SethTsaddik

But the version you are praising using the New World Translation created by the Watchtower or Jehovah Witnesses does not contain all the verses of the holy scriptures, the words in it are not defined by the context in it, and one must use their watchtower magazine to get the authority of men and the NWT meanings and not God's. Does not have a self cross referencing to keep the doctrines of God pure, does not teach the truth of the Son of God being God in the flesh, and does not offer Salvation by grace through faith on the finished work of Christ on the cross, but by men's works to sell watchtower magazines, and learning supposed dead languages that they could tell you what verses and words they have in the NWT mean instead of letting God's preserved words teach as the Holy Ghost teaches. Nor do JW's believe that the Holy Ghost is a person despite the many verses that teach that he is a he which is a person.

Just like you and Islam. You both have a lot in common unsaved and misled. There is a lake of fire and one portion of hell is still there for lost people who die before judgement day. the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing Rev 20 and things that are different are not the same.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Sorry but hell and the lake of fire are clearly two different things. JW's believe in Annihilation and not in eternal judgement of an eternity of punishment as the preserved word of God teaches.

I suggest you start believing the preserved word of God and turn from this thy folly.

Sorry the preserved word of God is true and you are not once again.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

But the version you are praising using the New World Translation created by the Watchtower or Jehovah Witnesses does not contain all the verses of the holy scriptures,

I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about, I certainly don't use that Bible or even have one though so... what ARE you talking about?

the words in it are not defined by the context in it, and one must use their watchtower magazine to get the authority of men and the NWT meanings and not God's. Does not have a self cross referencing to keep the doctrines of God pure, does not teach the truth of the Son of God being God in the flesh, and does not offer Salvation by grace through faith on the finished work of Christ on the cross, but by men's works to sell watchtower magazines, and learning supposed dead languages that they could tell you what verses and words they have in the NWT mean instead of letting God's preserved words teach as the Holy Ghost teaches. Nor do JW's believe that the Holy Ghost is a person despite the many verses that teach that he is a he which is a person.

Just like you and Islam. You both have a lot in common unsaved and misled. There is a lake of fire and one portion of hell is still there for lost people who die before judgement day. the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing Rev 20 and things that are different are not the same.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Sorry but hell and the lake of fire are clearly two different things. JW's believe in Annihilation and not in eternal judgement of an eternity of punishment as the preserved word of God teaches.

I suggest you start believing the preserved word of God and turn from this thy folly.

Sorry the preserved word of God is true and you are not once again.

Your words don't mean anything, not just to me personally but they don't make any sense or point and are attempts to insult me.

It doesn't bother me because you are the one not realizing you are a fool, I'm sure it is just as easy for anyone interested to see you are a joke that nobody takes seriously, comedy relief.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You still think Baptism of fire is something bad, for someone like me it's proof you don't understand the Gospels or Christ.

Which is why you latch on to Paul who has turned you into a self righteous hypocrite that hates other religions for reasons you don't know are b.s. and lies, you leave proof in every thread, comment practically.

The Qur'an mentions you, the fools who don't know they are fools. It doesn't mean Christians either but people who are in the dark because of their own foolishness.

God has, similar to hardening Pharaoh's heart, blinded your "lamp" the eye of the body , which is unclean, your heart is uncircumcised, you are of the Synogogue of Satan and not what you claim.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Was Pentacost, with its tongues of FIRE that gave people the Spirit bad too?

I so know you don't know Christ.

Or Paul. In fact you have a backwards opinion of just about everything regarding the Bible and don't understand knowledge.

You use an out of date and academically inferior version of the Bible exclusively and boast about it.

Caring nothing of new discoveries and translations based on older and better MSS. and have a stunted understanding because of the silly language and inferior Masoretic based translation with known errors in your 1611 King James Bible.

That's choosing to be less educated, for whatever reason, because better translations do exist.