Confederate Flags

Yep, that's the problem. THe flag itself is not racist, and lots of non-racists probably quite like it. But lots of racists do use the flag as a symbol of racist hatred. And lots of people feel intimidated and insulted by it.

So on balance, it causes a lot of needless offence.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Just a little bit of a history lesson here for those that insist that certain symbols must always mean only one thing:

Official US flags when slavery was legal, practiced and certainly people were racist:

I guess no one should ever display these flags, because they obviously were symbols where slavery was an accepted practice, if racist people!

Here is the actual flag of the Confederacy:

Strangely enough you'd all be surprised at how many people don't even blink an eye at that one. Many don't even know what it is.

Here is the BATTLE flag that so many scream and yell about:

Here we go, the US flag after the war.......while Jim Crow laws were fully in affect, and even upheld by SCOTUS:

Guess we should be upset over that one too, right?

Last is today's flag:

Lots of people reserve the right to jump up and down on this one and burn it, all in the name of "free speech"......but if you display the confederate battle flag, ZOMG! You must be a horrible racist person!

smh

Worth repeating!

Terrific history lesson in a short post (with pictures for those that need them)!

a reply to: eriktheawful

isn't that the point?

Attribute enough negative things to an object and presto!

You have a consensus to ban the object!

a reply to: DBCowboy

EGG-zactly!

We have a lot of people that have either been taught to equate certain symbols with certain feelings and beliefs with an ALL or NOTHING attitude.

I see it over and over here on ATS all the time.

There's a thread here posted yesterday, someone thinking back of the "good old days", and rather quickly you had other members jump in screaming about racism and discrimination....there for the "good old days" were HORRIBLE and how DARE you try to think good things about those days!!!

You'll notice it's the same people that tend to attack you if you do not have the same belief system as them and agree with them on everything.

So much for "tolerance".

For now, I've got to finish making breakfast, so I can go out later and offend a few hundred people by saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays"

I could run around and wish everyone a happy Samhain....but that would offend other people too......

originally posted by: imjack
a reply to: CulturalResilience

The meaning is not a direct association. I already mentioned this with Nazi's symbols that are original attributes to good will, and luck and now mean killing Jews and White Surpemacy.

The Confederate Flag potentially DID have other meanings, but you're a redneck conservative shill if you claim the Confederate flag doesn't have explicitly ideas of White Supremacy and killing Black people now, just like the Nazis.

If you want to say it has other meanings that's great! Shouldn't have been pro-slavery though, good luck ever being remember for anything other than that.

It's all in the mind of the beholder.

People of Tibet don't see the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism and slavery. For them, it's the Chinese national flag. For Palestinians, it's the Israeli flag. No doubt many in Britain's former colonies see the Union Jack as a symbol of hatred, racism, slavery, and oppression. For many people in the Middle East, it's the US flag. It wouldn't surprise me it the US flag is the second most internationally recognized symbol of slavery, racism, hatred and genocide today.

I worry less about a symbols on a piece of cloth than I do the person waving it. When I see a Democratic Party donkey on a bumper sticker, I don't automatically assume the driver supports slavery, or the KKK, or Jim Crow laws, or eugenics, or the idea that citizens are property of the State. I'll reserve my judgement until I get to know that person a little better.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: DBCowboyI could run around and wish everyone a happy Samhain....but that would offend other people too......

Other than the fact that you'd be just short of 2 months late, I'm fine with that.

I celebrate Samhain every year.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

Very true.

I meant to say Yule.

Wonder how many on here even know what Yule is.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Great post, but you missed my favorite, The US Civil Flag for Peacetime. Unfortunately, we'll never see that again, what with the perpetual state of war we live in.

I'm a Texan and was born raised in that great state…

I don't have a racist bone in my body…

However, I have a lot of bones imbued with realism...

I have seen confederate flags my whole life and they typically are displayed by people who tend towards racism...

This is not in any way discussing the flags meaning nor its relevance nor why the Civil War was fought nor blah blah blah..

I'm simply saying in my experience, people who fly the confederate flag TEND towards racism…

My post is entirely anecdotal but represents a large data set because I've seen MANY confederate flags and interacted with most of those people my entire life…

Disclaimer:
The meaning of the flag was very different immediately post war when veterans who had fought for the Confederacy still walked the earth...

Many did not go to war to fight for slavery but for individual reasons ranging from state rights to loyalty to their culture[the South]...

So in those days it's certainly represented much more than what it does today…

But I think it's inarguable what most people tend towards who are willing to fly the confederate flag…

-Christosterone

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: cynicalheathen

Very true.

I meant to say Yule.

Wonder how many on here even know what Yule is.

It's a contraction for "Yute will ..."

I wonder if ISIS were to adopt the rainbow flag, how many would support the ban of that.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

That's a valid point, but not a unanimously applicable one.


My opinion, is despite what others beliefs are, there is no actual 'salvaging' of this symbol. It has been redefined, and it's new definition will not waiver, especially for the previous one.

If someone 'better hearted' is waving the Conservative Flag, they're merely misinformed. I already posted statistics that directly relate it's acceptance with Education.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
I wonder if ISIS were to adopt the rainbow flag, how many would support the ban of that.

I imagine it would be similar to how some would feel if ISIS were to adopt the confederate flag.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
I wonder if ISIS were to adopt the rainbow flag, how many would support the ban of that.

I would instantly. That's possibly why you don't understand the connection of hanging onto Slavery as bad. You think other morals are more precedent than the main idea. If the main idea of the Rainbow flag is ISIS, obviously people would drop it.

You're just angry you can't get people to relate the Rainbow Flag with ISIS, like slavery has been with the Confederate Flag.

That's mostly due to truth and reality.

Do you think Swastikas are cool because of the Pagans? When you see a Swastica, you think of Pagans first?

This is what you're asking for.

It seems to me that any flag, or symbol, can be claimed by some group as being something it was never intended to be. Remember the children's educational TV program called "Reading Rainbow"? The use of the rainbow symbol has become the symbol for gay rights, but does that mean Reading Rainbow is part of the gay rights agenda? If you follow that symbol to it's most popularly known origin, it was originally an Old Testament Bible symbol of God's promise to never flood the earth again.

The American Revolutionary flag known as the Gadsden flag (Don't Tread on Me) has become a symbol considered to be used by ignorant red neck militia members and has suffered a similar fate as the Confederate Battle Flag. Today you are considered a threat to the U.S. government and general population if you wave the Gadsden flag, yet it was originally a symbol of colonial unity and a warning to Britain to tread lightly and take care when dealing with the colonies.

a reply to: imjack

That's the problem right there, in your post.

Simply because I don't support the banning of something, you immediately assume that I am for what ever you attribute the flag to represent.

originally posted by: imjack
a reply to: Irishhaf

You basically said people aren't racist if they didn't own a slave. Not true to many degrees.

You want people to "research" this bad opinion rather than explaining it yourself.

So in your mind the entire population of the confederacy was racist?

Cause that is what it seemed like you were implying...

What about the slave owners in the north... and the people that didn't support abolitionist in the north?

Also I was not implying there was no racism involved in the south, more of an I dont care either way for a great many people, farm life is hard work sun up to sun down just to keep food on the table... if crops had a bad year you had to squeeze in hunting to keep the family fed.

when you do not have a day off, and work that many hours a week, I expect a great many people never gave it much thought... they simply accepted what had been a natural part of society their entire lives.

That does not mean they endorsed slavery... does not mean they hated other ethnic groups, it just means in the hard scrabble to provide for the family they did not have time or inclination to think on it.

We are spoiled in this day and age where we can work 40 hours a week and still have time to read, research etc..

Back then philosophy was a luxury for the academics or the rich alone, the average family in an agriculture society back then had to work all day and into the night 365 days a year to make sure their family was provided for.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
I wonder if ISIS were to adopt the rainbow flag, how many would support the ban of that.

Liberals want to ban all things...
It's inherent to their interpretation of "tolerance"…

The Confederate flag should never be banned...it's part of America's history...

MANY great men who were right and good fought and died for the South...

And as a southerner I tend to have reverence for the confederacy born of my sensibilities shaped in Texas…but my point remains

However, banning speech(or flags) is the sole dominion of the weak minded progressive...

To a conservative, anyone can fly the stars and bars or put a sticker of it on your car because that is your right as a free man of America...regardless of whether or not it's construed by some[many] as offensive…

-Chris

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: imjack

That's the problem right there, in your post.

Simply because I don't support the banning of something, you immediately assume that I am for what ever you attribute the flag to represent.

I don't support the banning of the flag, IMO it falls under the 1st. You're the one that makes the assumption that's even my stance.

What I am claiming is that Symbols have attributed meanings by the public no matter if you care for them OR NOT. You can deny this obvious fact. You can deny a lesser obvious fact that the Confederate Flag is a go-to symbol for Racism.

Nothing in my stance is even close to 'holding firm', as opposed to deniers that there isn't the slightest racist implication in the meaning, and in usage of this flag today- that is blatantly false.


Unless you deny racists deny racism. That would be your stance here if you disagree.

originally posted by: Irishhaf

originally posted by: imjack
a reply to: Irishhaf

You basically said people aren't racist if they didn't own a slave. Not true to many degrees.

You want people to "research" this bad opinion rather than explaining it yourself.

So in your mind the entire population of the confederacy was racist?

No, but seeing as you only understand ultimatums of logic, I'm going to end addressing your post here.

In your mind is no one of the Confederacy racist? Maybe that helps highlight how stupid it sounds to say it that way at all.