Pro-Choice “Facts”: Fetal Development

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Very true, works 100% of the time.

But we all know how well it works in practice.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I'm not sure how many more ideas that you are looking for, but as far as some of the ideas that I put forth, I see the pros of the man at least needing to be notified of the intent to abort outweighing the cons of that idea.

The more usual scenario is when the man is informed he disappears in a puff

of smoke, OR if she goes on to give birth getting any sort of emotional or

financial support from him is zilch

You only need to watch Jeremy Kyle to see this.

a reply to: eletheia

Neither of those examples are a good reason not to info the male side of the equation.

originally posted by: seasonal

She is a minor, so just like a lot of much smaller and less significant thing she can't do abortion is one of them.

14 year olds are not able to make this decision, so that leaves us, the adults to yell at each other.

In the UK a 14 year old's privacy is protected. She can go to the GP and get the

pill or contraceptive implant without the permission of her parents .... BUT

if she needs an operation she has to be signed for by a parent. I fail to see the

logic there.

Also they have a nurse/counsellor at senior school who will provide condoms

advice and the morning after pill.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: eletheia

Neither of those examples are a good reason not to info the male side of the equation.

Which part of doing a runner do you not understand

a reply to: eletheia
We Americans will take care of our own children, and we get real mean when people step over the line. The shenanigans you talk about would go over like a lead balloon.


Are you talking about the guy not sticking around?

Which part of doing a runner do you not understand

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: Hecate666

I think that you're forgetting to think about the other life involved...or the partner, whose DNA half of that fetus consists of, and wouldn't exist without. Where are the rights of those two people in this equation, or does, say, the father get excluded because nature decided that the woman bears the child, which is something that he can't control or change? And does the fetus have zero say just because they can't talk yet, or may need the umbilical chord for substance (per nature's design)?

I fully understand that the baby develops inside of and relies on the mother's body for development, but to pretend that there is only one person and one body involved during a pregnancy and an abortion is disingenuous at best.

I am sorry, it is solely down to the one putting their health and life at risk to have the last say on this. It may seem 'unfair' to the father but truth is that any man only needs another few seconds to make another offspring, therefore nature probably thought [sorry for anthropomorphising nature] that really he shouldn't be that worried.
A woman can't just quickly make another one, it takes the best part of a year, a lot of pain, discomfort and in some cases leads to death.
So yes, it is solely down to her, no man can FORCE a woman to go through that just because they 'want' something they could make really quickly with someone else.
Sorry men.

a reply to: eletheia

I don't care who many dirtbag men you've been around--my experience with most divorces (my parents when I was 9, a few friend, my wife's parents about 10 years ago, etc...) is that the men act like men, provide support, remain a major part of their children's lives, and are there for them every step of the way.

Hell, I chose to live with my dad except for every other weekend once I turned 12 so that I could live by all of my old friends and go to school with them. Even in that reversed roll, my mom was always there for me along the way, too.

I'm sorry that your experiences have shown you the crap side of fathers, but your claim is not always the case, and without researching statistics, I'd hope that it's not the majority, either.

I do know a few deadbeats, though, but they include the man AND the woman--it's not always the man who is the problem.

a reply to: eletheia

I don't care who many dirtbag men you've been around--my experience with most divorces (my parents when I was 9, a few friend, my wife's parents about 10 years ago, etc...) is that the men act like men, provide support, remain a major part of their children's lives, and are there for them every step of the way.

Hell, I chose to live with my dad except for every other weekend once I turned 12 so that I could live by all of my old friends and go to school with them. Even in that reversed roll, my mom was always there for me along the way, too.

I'm sorry that your experiences have shown you the crap side of fathers, but your claim is not always the case, and without researching statistics, I'd hope that it's not the majority, either.

I do know a few deadbeats, though, but they include the man AND the woman--it's not always the man who is the problem.

originally posted by: Hecate666
I am sorry, it is solely down to the one putting their health and life at risk to have the last say on this.

I have a wife and know other women in my life who disagree with your assertion. That's a nice opinion that you have, there, but in the end, it's just an opinion--well, and it's the current law, but it's okay if I, my wife, and other women I know disagree with the way things are and would like to see them changed.

So yes, it is solely down to her, no man can FORCE a woman to go through that just because they 'want' something they could make really quickly with someone else.
Sorry men.

You have a really deranged way of looking at pregnancy. Most men want a baby (not just a "something") with a woman that they love, with whom they believe would make a wonderful mother and help raise great human beings, and with whom they see themselves spending the rest of their lives.

To whittle down a man to something akin to 'a guy who just wants something that they can make with any woman really quickly' is a pretty asinine statement to make, and really a poor reflection of how you view relationships, having children, and what you think of men in general.

a reply to: whismermill
I agree here, at 12 weeks it could basically just be a parasite invasion.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I don't care who many dirtbag men you've been around--

Assumptions much?

my experience with most divorces (my parents when I was 9, a few friend, my wife's parents about 10 years ago, etc...) is that the men act like men, provide support, remain a major part of their children's lives, and are there for them every step of the way.

Whoa!! that must be a large percentage of the US you are speaking for?

FACT....almost half of abortions in the US are performed because the

woman doesn't want to be a single mother


health.howstuffworks.com...


Strange that when you claim "That men act like men, provide support

remain a major part of their childs life and remain with them every step

of the way!"

At current rates it is estimated that 35% of all women will have had an

abortion by the time they reach 45 yrs. So the odds are that at least one

in every three women you meet or know will likely have had an abortion.


5aa1b2xfmfh2e2mk03kk8rsx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com...


The world is a much bigger place than your small smug, self centered world

I'm sorry that your experiences have shown you the crap side of fathers, but your claim is not always the case, and without researching statistics, I'd hope that it's not the majority, either.

Dont worry about my experiences.... I know many fantastic fathers but

I also know many dead beats. I dont personally know this one but on our

local news channel they interviewed a young man (and I use that term

loosely) who at 27 had fathered 13 children with 12 women and wasn't

seeing or supporting any one of them... thats the reality.

originally posted by: eletheia
Assumptions much?

Well, when you make such claims, I must deduce from you comment that you know such information from personal experience, because everything that you mention isn't necessarily provable

Whoa!! that must be a large percentage of the US you are speaking for?

FACT....almost half of abortions in the US are performed because the

woman doesn't want to be a single mother

Holy hell--take a minute a re-read what I wrote. I literally said that (and I'm copying from your quote of my comment), "My experience with most divorces ... is that the men act like men, provide support, remain a major part of their children's lives, and are there for them every step of the way." I then went on to note that (and this is a direct quote again), "I do know a few deadbeats, though, but they include the man AND the woman--it's not always the man who is the problem."

I'm unsure why you are trying to paint my comments as meaning something else, but they mean exactly what I said--I'm speaking for the people who I have direct experience with who have gone through a divorce, not for a large portion of America, not for most men, and certainly not for every single instance out there. Take my comment for face value, as I'm not being passive about anything that I'm saying. I'm a pretty direct guy.

Also, it bears mentioning that women should maybe take better precautions before having sex with guys who aren't really dad material--birth control, both for men and women, have really great efficacy rates when used properly. Here, just for reference:

At current rates it is estimated that 35% of all women will have had an abortion by the time they reach 45 yrs. So the odds are that at least one in every three women you meet or know will likely have had an abortion.

Well, your terrible math aside (35% of women of child-bearing years through 45 years old is NOT 1/3 of all women that I meet or will ever know), this really means absolutely nothing concerning my comments to you. It is, however, a pretty terrible reflection on the over 1/3 of women in that age range that your statistic represents, barring certain instances (which I don't need to spell out for you).

Dont worry about my experiences.... I know many fantastic fathers but I also know many dead beats. I dont personally know this one but on our local news channel they interviewed a young man (and I use that term loosely) who at 27 had fathered 13 children with 12 women and wasn't seeing or supporting any one of them... thats the reality.

I'm sorry that you know a lot of deadbeat dads, but what you just did there is called a logical fallacy, using an extreme case to pretend that it is the norm of reality. Try that tactic on others, as it doesn't work on me. That doesn't reflect well on the women who chose to (apparently) have unprotected sex with that guy, either, now does it? It takes two to make a baby, but I agree that it takes two to parent said baby, as well. The reality that guys like that exist sucks.

BTW, who is that guy that you mention, Ol' Dirty Bastard? I thought he's been dead for over a decade...

a reply to: seasonal

Of course, the woman, being her body, is the gatekeeper. Common, absolute fact.

Now, when life can be made without a woman's body-then it becomes a group decision. But, that isn't today.

A woman's body; a woman's decision. Only. Period.

a reply to: SlapMonkey
a reply to: seasonal

I am just going to leave this here.

Honestly, how can libertarian minded people disagree with the notion of bodily integrity? Humans have the inherent right to dictate what happens to their body. This idea, along with the larger ideas of autonomy and self-determination are fundamental to a free society, and will come with a certain set of ills that will not set well with the general populace. It isn't easy being free.

Arguing this from either side requires a definition of a self-determinate, autonomous human being, or for this argument, when a human being is or not. In my opinion, defining this is very dangerous and inherently flawed. It will devolve into slippery slopes that go nowhere.

Limiting abortions to 22-26 weeks (depending on state) is essentially a line in the sand for people who believe in bodily autonomy regardless of how someone else might feel about it (father/fetus included). To argue that someone should have control over another persons body because of how they feel is completely ridiculous and would cause a lot more harm than safe, legal abortions ever could.

I don't think the fetus (medical term for an unborn child) during those weeks is as self-determinate and autonomous as the mother. In my mind, it is matters of degree, not so much a clear line of when. The mother has more right to self-determination because she can self-determine, the fetus cannot. The fetus, at that point, is wholly dependent on the survival of the mother.

Before the "well by that logic" argument: Logic actually gets more complicated as you carry it out. This is my best attempt to boil down my argument as to why abortion is a necessary evil. There will always be anecdotes to the contrary, but I firmly agree with the notion of bodily autonomy and how important it is to have in a free society.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Holy hell--take a minute a re-read what I wrote. I literally said that (and I'm copying from your quote of my comment), "My experience with most divorces ... is that the men act like men, provide support, remain a major part of their children's lives, and are there for them every step of the way." I then went on to note that (and this is a direct quote again), "I do know a few deadbeats, though, but they include the man AND the woman--it's not always the man who is the problem."

I dont need to re read your post I quoted it for accuracy.

Also, it bears mentioning that women should maybe take better precautions before having sex with guys who aren't really dad material--birth control, both for men and women, have really great efficacy rates when used properly. Here, just for reference:

I dont need lessons on contraception ....thank you however if you checked the

link in my post you would see

Fact... Half of ALL women getting abortions

were using contraption the month in which they conceived

5aa1b2xfmfh2e2mk03kk8rsx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com...

perhaps you need to preach to the men? so as to stop the dead beat women

from having termenations.

At current rates it is estimated that 35% of all women will have had an abortion by the time they reach 45 yrs. So the odds are that at least one in every three women you meet or know will likely have had an abortion
Well, your terrible math aside (35% of women of child-bearing years through 45 years old is NOT 1/3 of all women that I meet or will ever know), this really means absolutely nothing concerning my comments to you. It is, however, a pretty terrible reflection on the over 1/3 of women in that age range that your statistic represents, barring certain instances (which I don't need to spell out for you).

Not MY statics..... the broken down statics of NAF (National Abortion Federation)


5aa1b2xfmfh2e2mk03kk8rsx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com...


You should really check links before calling people out on statics!!

I'm sorry that you know a lot of deadbeat dads, but what you just did there is called a logical fallacy, using an extreme case to pretend that it is the norm of reality. Try that tactic on others, as it doesn't work on me. That doesn't reflect well on the women who chose to (apparently) have unprotected sex with that guy, either, now does it? It takes two to make a baby, but I agree that it takes two to parent said baby, as well. The reality that guys like that exist sucks.

It is more the reality than anything you have quoted even if it is at the top

end of the scale of deadbeats. However you dont need to take these things

to heart its never going to be your problem ....Bottom line is ...

( She) is not your problem Her body her choice

some women are crappy partners, wives and mothers, and some men are crappy husbands, partners, and fathers..
others are much better at being partners and parents.. it's insane to act like this isn't the case in either direction.
but, I found this particularly interesting and relevant to the current discussion here...

Below are some very disturbing facts about why some women may feel pressured into getting an abortion.



64% involve coercion. A study published in a major international medical journal found that 64% of American women who had abortions felt pressured by others. Coercion can include loss of home, job or family, and even violent assault.

Up to 83% wanted to have the baby. In a survey of women who sought help after abortion, 83% said they would have carried to term if they had received support from the baby’s father, their family, or other important people in their lives.

In 95% of cases, men play a central role in the decision to abort according to a survey of women at abortion clinics.

Husbands and boyfriends threaten women at the clinic. A former abortion clinic security guard testified before the Massachusetts legislature that women were routinely threatened and abused by the husbands and boyfriends who took them to the clinics to make sure they had abortions.

Dangerous consequences if she resists. Coercion can escalate to violence and even murder. Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women. The “Forced Abortion in America” report includes examples of molesters posing as fathers to procure cover-up abortions and women being fired, beaten, shot, stabbed, tortured or killed for refusing to abort.

prolifemen.publishpath.com...

and please note that this is from a site called Pro-life MEN but I've seen similar statistics elsewhere...
it seems that men are having a pretty big impact on women when it comes to abortions!!

and another bill has gone through a state congress and is heading to the governor's desk, this time in Ohio...

House joins Senate in approving heartbeat abortion bill

In a surprise move in the final days of the lame-duck session, the Senate and House adopted the Heartbeat Bill — long sought by some abortion opponents — to outlaw abortions once a fetal heartbeat can be detected, generally about six weeks into pregnancy.

never mind that the two other states that have passed similar laws had those laws shot down by the supreme court.

Officials of NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio were stunned. The group issued a statement saying, "The unconstitutional six-week abortion ban, known as the 'Heartbeat Bill,' would block access to safe and legal abortion before most women even know they’re pregnant. The amendment has no exceptions in the bill for rape, incest, or to protect the health of the woman and would criminalize doctors who perform abortion procedures, regardless of the reason."

www.dispatch.com...

no exception for incest or rape, nope, we'll just force young children to have children...
no exception to protect the health of the mother, nope, so what if a pregnancy causes a women life long disability...
and who care if you didn't even realize you were pregnant till the seventh week....

originally posted by: WUNK22
It's inhuman, a sick form of birth control. I personally know women who have used it as such. I understand there's special cases, rape, life of mother. But some easy women's form of birth control?? If you play, you pay, actions have consequences.

Haven't you gotten the memo? "Responsibility", the word and the action have been redacted. No one is responsible for anything anymore. If you act like a thug and threaten a cop and get shot...its the cops fault. If you rob a store and get arrested...it is the store owner's fault.

Sometimes "progress" goes in the wrong direction.

The Right on Pro-Life: "Yup, that mound of cells with non-functioning organs and no brain activity looks human to me!"

The Right on Evolution: "We evolved from Monkeys?! I can't see any resemblance..."