Utopian future will not work

Ok so you are saying we need to change how people think in order to have uthopia and i agree. If peoples mindset changes then it can work.

a reply to: TerryDon79

The motivation will come from exploration.
Once monotonous jobs are gone, we'll have more time to explore:
- outer space
- places around the world
- scientific possibilities
- creative limits of humans in music, arts...

I haven't heard much mention--other than from a couple posters--about the possibility of progress for each person. One of the things which motivates us is to be meaningful--to improve ourselves and others. If in a future utopian society I get all I need--at a minimum--but do not possess the intelligence, health or good fortune to perform most of the jobs available then where's the sense of satisfaction one gets when they've made a difference in the world? Living, even if it's bolstered by entertainment and happy pills and friendship, is merely existing if it's without achievement. I realize this may not be true for everyone and maybe it'll be solved, such that nobody is bothered by it.

I recall in the Matrix movie Agent Smith explains it this way:
The relevant part is at the beginning. He explains how the first Matrix was a utopia. The humans however rejected it.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: HarryJoy

All that's really doing is streamlining useful production and eliminating production of luxuries.

The ultimate outcome ounds kind of boring (everyone doing and having the same things). Where's the uniqueness that makes a person a person?

Ok....since when is streamlining and reduction of waste a bad thing ? As far as being boring. The system I am describing would offer each person way more variety of experience then the current system does....in the system that I am describing people would be changing jobs probably every 3 months and possibly shorter intervals on some jobs.

And I don't see how you think individuality would be lost ? Individuality is not something that can be taken away . You can put men in a prison make them sleep on the same kind of a bed...live in the same type of a cell...and wear the exact same clothes as each other and yet they are all uniquely individual and there's nothing that can ever change that. The system I'm describing certainly would in no way stifle the ability to express our individuality everyone will always find ways to personalize their own clothes or their own space....

a reply to: TerryDon79

You seem to assume that a Utopian society would exclusively involve a society where EVERYTHING provided by The System in such a manner that work is unnecessary. Now such a world could perhaps exist thousands of years in the future when humans have evolved out of the Skinner Box mentality that you call motivation.

Shorter term, a realistic Utopian society (one that is not only possible, but considering the massive loss of jobs to technology that will be happening over the next 30 years, absolutely necessary), would be one in which the fundamentals of existence are provided through a socialized system. Essentially, no one in the society need worry about Food/Shelter/Medical Care/Utilities. Using modern technology this could be easily done.

Beyond those fundamentals of survival, a free-market system fueled by a population no longer tethered to 40+ hour a week busywork jobs would provide the more classically Utopian delights and would prompt a wider range of people to be the productive members of society you seem to think people need special motivation to be.

Sure, there would be some people who do the absolute bare minimum and contribute nothing to the betterment of society, but even if 60% of the population opted to be relatively dead weight, the power, innovation, creativity, and talent of the unleashed 40% of society would be more than enough to make the world explode into a heretofore unimaginable golden age.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Very good post.

When The Mayflower landed in Massachusetts they set up a socialist community where all would eat but only the able bodied would be required to labor.

The result was a disturbingly high number of young people with crippling back problems. As starvation was looming the governor allowed the productive to keep the fruits of their labors and sell the excess for a profit, and the epidemic of bad backs (and impossible to diagnose soft tissue injuries) disappeared virtually overnight.

This exemplifies the human nature to which you allude. Work is pain and pain is to be avoided unless there's an incentive to labor.

originally posted by: RobertAntonWeishaupt
a reply to: TerryDon79

Sure, there would be some people who do the absolute bare minimum and contribute nothing to the betterment of society, but even if 60% of the population opted to be relatively dead weight, the power, innovation, creativity, and talent of the unleashed 40% of society would be more than enough to make the world explode into a heretofore unimaginable golden age.

In the entire course of human history can you cite a single example of your theory in successful practice? And, it wouldn't be 60%, but 99% who refuse to labor if not required to survive. Your estimate presupposes that 40% of the population would in their idleness lift weights, jog or engage in arduous exercise simply because they want to look better, stronger, healthier. Believe me, the numbers of folks who wish they were cut and buff and those who pump iron are worlds apart in reality.

a reply to: HOUNDDAWG

Nope.

Then again, we literally have never been at a point in human history where we have the technology that we have at our disposal; technology which is only going to increase in the coming years.

Everyone still imagines collectivism in the old-school communist/socialist mode from a time when it took 100 villagers to harvest the wheat for the winter. With the tools already being deployed, thousands of acres can be harvested by combines running a GPS guided program and set in motion with the a few strokes of a keyboard.

The fact is that a disgusting amount of human labor and potential is eaten up by literally useless, redundant busy work predicated on the notion that one must work at least 40 hours a week to "earn" a living. These teeming hordes of shiftless layabouts that you and your ilk complain about are more often than not repulsed not by the idea of an honest day's work, but by the grim realities of the antediluvian hamster wheel that our economy is on. In a system that focused on leveraging human technology to the benefit of all a 10 hour work week would be sufficient to secure a basic standard of living equivalent to that of a traditionally middle class family.

Right now, the three biggest obstacles between us and a relative Utopia are as follows:

1. Corporations and oligarchs who incorrectly view the world as a zero sum game.
2. Politicians who are beholden to said corporations and oligarchs.
3. A population unwilling to accept the absurdity of our current paradigm.

originally posted by: RobertAntonWeishaupt

Shorter term, a realistic Utopian society (one that is not only possible, but considering the massive loss of jobs to technology that will be happening over the next 30 years, absolutely necessary), would be one in which the fundamentals of existence are provided through a socialized system. Essentially, no one in the society need worry about Food/Shelter/Medical Care/Utilities. Using modern technology this could be easily done.

How do you intend to accomplish this without forcing people to work or taxing the "free market"?

I love this entire thread and everyone in it.

There's a secretary in Atlas Shrugged who commits suicide after she realizes that her hard work won't be recognized/acknowledged and that she'll never be rewarded, see a raise, move up, and etc.

That's the first thing that came to mind.

I think people function best on the reward/discipline system. Anyone with kids knows this, and we don't change just because we grow up, lol. People want raises, acknowledgement, and they want to be appreciated for their hard work. If none of that stuff comes, then I think depression sets in.

I do agree that if all of our basic needs are met though, then that could alleviate a lot of stress and allow us to stimulate ourselves (become curious and step outside of our comfort zones). In my one text, it talks about how people naturally seek stimulation if they feel safe (basically people want to mini traumatize themselves with new experiences from time to time). But that doesn't mean we lose our reward/disciplinary nature after we become adults. We still want to see the fruits of our labor. If there are no fruits, we wouldn't labor.

Just my initial reaction to the OP.

a reply to: geezlouise

Your post reminded me of a sign that I saw hanging in a workshop....it said " A workman's greatest reward is a job well done "

Work in and of itself is a reward. ...when a person is not put under the pressures of time constraints and profit margins ...labor becomes a fulfilling and satisfying experience. Many types of intelligence are developed by performing manual labor on various projects...it is by performing a wide variety of jobs that a well balanced mind is developed. There is no substitute for manual labor. ...it is...contrary to popular belief. ..one of humanities greatest blessings.

This coupled with ample time in nature will imo lead to the healthiest mindsets that mankind is able to attain. ...Any system that neglects to expand interaction with nature will fail to bring about a good result. To neglect the earth and the lessons she provides is the greatest disrespect that can be shown to the universe. Any system that seeks to surround humanity with an artificial environment. ..Will lead to a shrinking of our faculties...imo

a reply to: HarryJoy

I love this.

originally posted by: HOUNDDAWG
a reply to: TerryDon79
Work is pain and pain is to be avoided unless there's an incentive to labor.

A job well done connotes that there is something to show for it.

Example: Dirty water gives us diarrhea so we work to clean it and now we don't have diarrhea anymore. The fruit of our work is no more diarrhea. That's a job well done.

Most people give up trying to learn something new when they don't get the hang of it right away. Sometimes that's because they have unrealistic expectations in that they expect fast, immediate results... like someone who picks up a paintbrush and expects to whip out a Bierstadt painting, or DaVinci's last supper, right away. That doesn't really happen. But that people give up on anything at all is a sign that people don't work if they don't see the desired results.

The people that really push the boundaries of things might not give up as quickly, or just go at it from different angles and entertain different possible future scenarios. But I am sure that after some time... if a work doesn't produce the desired results, then it will be abandoned.

I think connecting to nature is important because it houses us and if we destroy it, then what will happen to us? But I'm not anti-technology and really neither are you, sitting there using your computer, your smart phone, your means of transportation, and etc.

I'm just really glad I have clean water to drink from. And shelter. Heat and air-conditioning omg. And I thank plumbing, transportation, and my laptop so that I can sit here all day like a lazy fug and read and write on ATS and eat and when I go to the grocery store, people aren't fighting over the last loaf of bread. Cause there is no last loaf of bread... there's tons of it. And I'm glad I have insulin to inject into my broken a$$ body so that I can do this all over again tomorrow, too.

So idk, I think we're on the right track. And I don't think we have to abandon technology entirely.

a reply to: geezlouise

Well....I disagree with the statement that work is pain. I'm not the most industrious person in the world. ...But I have done my share of labor. I always felt good at the end of a productive day.

As far as technology goes...I really don't have a problem with it....But I do think that we need to find balance. Inactivity is not good for the human body. I think people get a wrong impression of the system that I speak about.

I don't see a system where people are working their asses off.....I see a system where we have enough human resources to make every job tolerable and probably even enjoyable. .Jobs in the present system are hard because companies don't want to use anymore people then is necessary to accomplish the task at hand. .in order to keep labor costs down. But in a system that doesn't have to worry about profit you can use as many people as needed in order to lighten the individual load of each person. In such a system it would be easy to provide useful labor for every inhabitant...although the one's that want to sit on the couch living on the computer might have to get spanked once in a while.

a reply to: HarryJoy

I'd need a lot of spanking, probably.

Which might not be so bad...

originally posted by: HarryJoy

I don't see a system where people are working their asses off.....I see a system where we have enough human resources to make every job tolerable and probably even enjoyable. .Jobs in the present system are hard because companies don't want to use anymore people then is necessary to accomplish the task at hand. .in order to keep labor costs down. But in a system that doesn't have to worry about profit you can use as many people as needed in order to lighten the individual load of each person. In such a system it would be easy to provide useful labor for every inhabitant...although the one's that want to sit on the couch living on the computer might have to get spanked once in a while.

We're pretty much on the same page, except I'm not seeking to get rid of our throwaway lifestyle and I'm certainly not trying to live in no pod eating cafeteria food and chopping down trees with an ax lol.

a reply to: Bone75

Well. ..think of the pod as looking like a flying saucer on a pedestal. The core of it would contain a bio mass pellet fueled home heating /hot water /power generation device and an incinerating and /or composting toilet.

It would also need a cistern and filter system for water...the cistern is something that would need to be filled on a semi regular basis...just one of the many service oriented type of jobs that we can do for each other.

As far as the "cafeteria food " Why couldn't the food be very well prepared and healthy ? I would probably make it mandatory to serve in the food preparation services...everyone would recieve training. I think almost everyone enjoys cooking...it's just that life doesn't allow most of us to be able to make It a priority. This system would have that opportunity "built in". So yeah. ..it would be some pretty good "cafeteria food ". And I envision cafeterias that each have their own ambience. ..such as some with large semi circular brick ovens with many chambers and large dining areas radiating out from there. I can just imagine some of the pizzas and breads and other baked goods that they would crank out. While we sat under cathedral type ceilings and exposed beams enjoying the fruits of our labor. And enjoying hearing our friends and neighbors comment on the meal we helped prepare...to me those our some of the best things in life.

As far as chopping down trees with axes....yeah it would be tough for the people coming from the current system to be able to perform tasks that were that rigorous. But the young could adapt to it well. .and subsequent generations would be down right rugged....after living in this type of a system

But the biggest reason is because the sacredness of the earth and her trees deserves the respect of the sacrifice of the labor of men's hands and the sweat of their brow....instead of being disrespected by the rape of our filthy machines....

And what of the animals? Why should they see their habitats devoured by our heartless iron beasts... instead of wisely groomed by thoughtful and diligent hands? And let only the blows of the axe and the soft words of the cross cut saw be heard in her sanctuaries. ...instead of drowning out her community with our screaming banshees....Sorry to wax poetic.. but it comes with the territory.

Why do I have the feeling I'm going to be standing alone in the forest cursing at the cross cut saw. ....

a reply to: HOUNDDAWG

Those exact events lead to a Golden Age in Egypt. The first recorded Golden Age of all time.

Egypt also mysteriously internally collapsed after that.

Maybe when we can automate the production of the essential things, food, clothing, shelter, health and education. Then we will be at a point where we can build towards utopia.
When people are free to follow their dreams rather than slog 70 odd hours a week to pay the mortgage, all the taxes and buy food for their families then we might see a growth in the arts and sciences (Both of which benefit society as a whole but are notoriously poorly rewarded for the majority of people).

originally posted by: HarryJoy
Why do I have the feeling I'm going to be standing alone in the forest cursing at the cross cut saw. ....

Don't worry, it looks like I'll be shoveling sh!t by myself as well lol. People are just plain stupid for the most part. Tell them you've figured out a way for them to spend a lot less time working and they call you a slave-driver... go figure.