The Awesome Book of Genesis

a reply to: Astrocyte

I had some hope but it seems that I was wrong.

It is true that occultists have used the tree of life for a different purpose and added further attributions to it.

Strangely the mention of a naked man and naked woman disturbs you. Yet Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden.

I had wished that you would have kept an open mind. The fact that you say occultists are mentally ill , says it all.

Are you a Jewish Rabbi ? If you are , I will understand and accept your indignation. However, it is the first time on ATS that someone has referred to occultists as "mentally ill" people. This , I really have difficulty understanding.

it should be allowed to exist as a stand alone document as intended...the rest of that compilation just messes everything up.

I prefer the book of Jubilees to Genesis, it explains things that are not explained in Genesis and is like a supplement along with Yasher and 1 Enoch.

Genesis is a cool book and my favorite character is Jacob. love the stealthy maneuvering to gain Esau's blessing that was his mothers decision and grants the blessings of the first born son Esau to Jacob, who was born trying to pull the heal of his brother and be first born.

He also gets his natural birthright by bribing the hungry and compliant Esau with stew, showing how little Esau values his inheritance and the cleverness of Jacob in usurping his brother with ease.

He also defeats God in a wrestling match that lasts all night and ends with Jacob forcing a blessing out of God to end the stalemate, making Jacob victorious over God.

Jacob is renamed Israel which means ''wrestles with God.'' This is prophetic as throughout the Bible Israel is fighting against God and being punished and then repenting and being redeemed.

But the God of Jacob is El which is interesting because Yahweh is a Son of God in Deuteronomy 32 if you have a correct translation not from the Masoretic texts.

It seems like El is God Most High and Yahweh is the God of Israel which is in line with old Canaanite mythology where El has 70 sons for 70 nations which is the amount of nations post flood in Genesis. Baal and Asherah are also Canaanite, Asherah is the wife of El and in Babylon of Baal and in the Temple as the tree symbolized her as the wife of Yahweh.

a reply to: crowdedskies

Strangely the mention of a naked man and naked woman disturbs you. Yet Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden.

Doesn't disturb me. I thought the images were quaint - sorta funny.

What do they even mean?

However, it is the first time on ATS that someone has referred to occultists as "mentally ill" people.

Did I say that? Hmm, sorry if I did. I don't usually just go right out and say such things.

Are you a Jewish Rabbi ? If you are , I will understand and accept your indignation. However, it is the first time on ATS that someone has referred to occultists as "mentally ill" people. This , I really have difficulty understanding.

Why do I have to be a Jewish Rabbi? I'm just a truth seeker - a goyim scientist at heart - eager and willing to know "the truth", where ever I may find it.

My only requirement: that you make sense when you speak.

If something doesn't seem "coherent" i.e. make sense to me, I, like anyone else, will deny its reality.

originally posted by: Astrocyte

Doesn't disturb me. I thought the images were quaint - sorta funny.

What do they even mean?

These are the "magical images" of those sephiroth (Yesod and Netzah). All occultists that use the Tree of Life agree on that. The other 8 sephiroth have different magical images and nothing to do with naked people. I thought is was very relevant to mention.

I am sorry for assuming that you worked on the Tree of Life (from a magical point of view). No wonder it seems incoherent to you. Had you been involved in occult studies , it would have made sense.

Did I say that? Hmm, sorry if I did. I don't usually just go right out and say such things.

Well , you did say it of Crowley and "the others". I took it as meaning anyone in the occult fraternity . Hence my reaction. However, I accept that we sometimes says things that we don't necesarily mean just to make a point in the moment.

Why do I have to be a Jewish Rabbi? I'm just a truth seeker - a goyim scientist at heart - eager and willing to know "the truth", where ever I may find it.

My only requirement: that you make sense when you speak.

If something doesn't seem "coherent" i.e. make sense to me, I, like anyone else, will deny its reality.

I too spent time studying the meaning of hebrew words ; especially those connected with the qabalah. That was a very long time ago. I did get as far as having a good understanding of the numerical value of words and the importance of it as well as the pronounciation and vibration of the words.

I only suspected that you could be a rabbi because you seem to treat my post as very alien to what you were writing about. In fact , I was making an interesting point and congratulating you on a very down to earth explanation of the fall from paradise.

Your attention to hebrew suggested to me that you were deeply into the "magical" qabalah . However, when you reacted in the way you did (by saying my comments made no sense at all) , I immediately thought you were defending the traditional jewish qabalah and were not someone who dabbles in magic after all.

I still find it difficult to imagine that someone would go so deeply into hebrew without being either a fervent follower of the jewish faith or a student of magic (using the western magical system based on the qabalah). If you are not one of those , what are you then ? A scientist at heart and eager and willing to know the truth - I somehow doubt it.

In any case, I will not bring magic into this thread. I do appreciate the hard work and worthy effort you are putting in though .

a reply to: crowdedskies

These are the "magical images" of those sephiroth (Yesod and Netzah). All occultists that use the Tree of Life agree on that. The other 8 sephiroth have different magical images and nothing to do with naked people. I thought is was very relevant to mention.

Ah, I've always been more into the philosophical than the mystical parts of the kabbalah.

Although I have experienced the ain soph, the name EHYeH - try not sleeping for 21 days straight Heavy, heavy experience of reality.

After that, horribly traumatized from what I had gone through (lost around 30 pounds in that 3 week period: the 'thorns' and 'thistles' ate up my protein) I hung up my mystical interests and have stayed away since.

I only suspected that you could be a rabbi because you seem to treat my post as very alien to what you were writing about. In fact , I was making an interesting point and congratulating you on a very down to earth explanation of the fall from paradise.

Oh, sorry again for the negative affects. It's quite easy, eh, for the words we read to reconstitute their nature in the mind of the Other?

Your attention to hebrew suggested to me that you were deeply into the "magical" qabalah . However, when you reacted in the way you did (by saying my comments made no sense at all) , I immediately thought you were defending the traditional jewish qabalah and were not someone who dabbles in magic after all.

No, the magical of course interests. Who wouldn't be interested in that? But, for what, and to what purpose, is the magic being exercised? That is the question of questions.

My book shelf is full of names and texts from various mystical traditions - with a heavy interest, as you seem to notice, in the orthodox kabbalah - mainly because some of its leading thinkers, Yitzhack Ginsburgh (ultra-orthodox), for instance, has some interesting stuff (related to the earths geography, the solar system etc), and Ariel Bar Tzadok, more liberal (could almost seem sabbatean to the untrained eye) have some interesting views.

But again, at the end of the day - do you want to meddle with your karma i.e. cause and effect? It seems this world "enchains" us whether we like it or not. It builds the processes of our cells and restrains us towards certain ways of acting.

If you are not one of those , what are you then ? A scientist at heart and eager and willing to know the truth - I somehow doubt it.

lol, why such a binary choice? You've never heard of someone with multiple interests? Do I have to "choose sides" i.e. are the Jews your mortal enemies or something?

Whatever the Hebrew bible (Torah, in particular) is, I do not live by it, I'm not Jewish, and yes I do have many "evil" books too on my shelf, crowley himself.

I am just an all-around knowledgeable person who is skeptical, because his scientific sensibility (commitment to empirical observation) allows him to locate truth.

If I find some interesting truth in the Hebrew Bible - because of a history of having studied it on my own - why does that interest you so much? I'm indifferent to the religious position - I'm more of a buddhist in my analytical and methodological position. I respect all religions so long as compassionate understanding is a part of the deal, because ultimately it is our biodynamical coherency which organizes us. So I look only to that which affirms that coherence.

originally posted by: Astrocyte

No, the magical of course interests. Who wouldn't be interested in that? But, for what, and to what purpose, is the magic being exercised? That is the question of questions.

It should be exercised because it is in our ability to do so. It is just another way of seeking.

My book shelf is full of names and texts from various mystical traditions - with a heavy interest, as you seem to notice, in the orthodox kabbalah - mainly because some of its leading thinkers, Yitzhack Ginsburgh (ultra-orthodox), for instance, has some interesting stuff (related to the earths geography, the solar system etc), and Ariel Bar Tzadok, more liberal (could almost seem sabbatean to the untrained eye) have some interesting views.

I bet it is interesting . I will look them up.

But again, at the end of the day - do you want to meddle with your karma i.e. cause and effect? It seems this world "enchains" us whether we like it or not. It builds the processes of our cells and restrains us towards certain ways of acting.

Not sure that I would be meddling with my karma anymore than a scientist or inventor who breaks new ground that may or may not have repercussions .

lol, why such a binary choice? You've never heard of someone with multiple interests?

Indeed a binary choice. You are either a fervent student of jewish mysticism or an occultist. You have to decide.

I have a lot of pastimes and hobbies; from painting to programming; flying to martial arts and I also play two musical instruments (guitar and flute). This is what I would call multiple interests. When it comes to spirtual quest , there is only one route that I have chosen out of many possible routes and I stick to it. I suspect you will too.

are the Jews your mortal enemies or something?

Certainly not. Quite the opposite

Whatever the Hebrew bible (Torah, in particular) is, I do not live by it, I'm not Jewish, and yes I do have many "evil" books too on my shelf, crowley himself.

Nice to know you also have other books (including Crowley). The poor guy does not deserve the title of wickedest man in the world. He never killed or hurt anyone and never commited genocide.

I have a few of Crawley's books which I like to refer to . His book 777 includes Gematria and is very focussed on hebrew as I am sure you know.

I am just an all-around knowledgeable person who is skeptical, because his scientific sensibility (commitment to empirical observation) allows him to locate truth.

That is how it always starts. Now you are deeply into the hebrew bible which does have a lot of answers. Your post betrays your facination.

If I find some interesting truth in the Hebrew Bible - because of a history of having studied it on my own - why does that interest you so much? I'm indifferent to the religious position - I'm more of a buddhist in my analytical and methodological position. I respect all religions so long as compassionate understanding is a part of the deal, because ultimately it is our biodynamical coherency which organizes us. So I look only to that which affirms that coherence.

So do I. I respect all religions and I particularly enjoy long conversations with buddhists monks during my travels in South East Asia.

My interest and reason for posting in this thread is because I respect the Old testament even though I can hardly remember the contents. If I had the time I would love to read the hebrew version.

If I seem to be inquisitive about your background and motives, it is only to put into context what you write. I hope that makes sense.

a reply to: Logarock

This is simply not true

How can you be so sure? Ze’ev Herzog, has 30 years experience excavating in Israel and has stated...

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people—and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story—now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
Link

So without collaborating evidence. the Torah could be considered a rehash of sumerian/babylonian myths rewritten to glorify Jews as Gods special people. This of cause doesn't mean that some parts of Torah arn't enlightening but one has to be careful accepting it as gospel in light of its obvious failings. Given early Jews prayed to YHWH and his consort Asherah suggests monotheism was a recent revision perhaps written around the date lostgirl mentions, 5th or 6th century BC.

a reply to: glend

I think it is more like, there were around 70 tribes each with there own God, the strength of the tribe measured the strength of the God, the Israelites were the strongest.

Enter Babylon, YHWH has to shift from "a" tribal God based on strength of tribe, to God head in order to compensate for the obviously weaker Israelites in the face of the Babylonian empire.

Prior to Babylon YHWH would of been a God, but Baal would of also been a God, once they figured out they weren't the dominate force in the region

They shifted to YHWH as the center piece and pushed the other tribal gods out of the story.

It was cultural/religious survival.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Logarock

This is simply not true

How can you be so sure? Ze’ev Herzog, has 30 years experience excavating in Israel and has stated...

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people—and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story—now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
Link

So without collaborating evidence. the Torah could be considered a rehash of sumerian/babylonian myths rewritten to glorify Jews as Gods special people. This of cause doesn't mean that some parts of Torah arn't enlightening but one has to be careful accepting it as gospel in light of its obvious failings. Given early Jews prayed to YHWH and his consort Asherah suggests monotheism was a recent revision perhaps written around the date lostgirl mentions, 5th or 6th century BC.

First off the sections in question, summerian/Babylonian what.....creation stories and some other things......very little relationship, from the same source material and what is close is a very small section. Not enough to even define the whole Torah anyway. The laws given to Moses, not the big ten, go deep and have no relationship with Babylonian civil law.

Genesis is okay, but it does contain two contradictory versions of the Creation of Man, which I guess you could call "covering all the bases," but mostly comes off as just sloppy editing.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Can you provide some context?

a reply to: fatkid

Very interesting viewpoint, thank you

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Logarock

This is simply not true

How can you be so sure? Ze’ev Herzog, has 30 years experience excavating in Israel and has stated...

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people—and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story—now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
Link

So without collaborating evidence. the Torah could be considered a rehash of sumerian/babylonian myths rewritten to glorify Jews as Gods special people. This of cause doesn't mean that some parts of Torah arn't enlightening but one has to be careful accepting it as gospel in light of its obvious failings. Given early Jews prayed to YHWH and his consort Asherah suggests monotheism was a recent revision perhaps written around the date lostgirl mentions, 5th or 6th century BC.

First off the sections in question, summerian/Babylonian what.....creation stories and some other things......very little relationship, from the same source material and what is close is a very small section. Not enough to even define the whole Torah anyway. The laws given to Moses, not the big ten, go deep and have no relationship with Babylonian civil law.

WHAT!!!

Hammurabi's code was the foundation for Mosaic law built on top of a previous Kingdom. Shemash the sun god is where Shem comes from and Utanapishtim was the source of the flood story.

Ras Shamra tablets reveal another source, Canaan, El, Asherah and Baal all come from Canaan.

Persia also influenced Judaism, the Jews adopted their mythology from MANY sources. Hiram Abi is an obvious play on Hammurabi who is portrayed as lesser than Solomon in prestige which is a total fiction.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Genesis is okay, but it does contain two contradictory versions of the Creation of Man, which I guess you could call "covering all the bases," but mostly comes off as just sloppy editing.

Maybe there actually was two creations.

The first creation event being man and woman created together and told to "replenish" the Earth, possibly by El.
The second creation event being by the war god, YHWH, who had his own ideas and set Adam in Eden to do his labours and then created Eve at a later time.

A simplistic viewpoint but I don't do complicated, as per the OP...which is way too hard for me to read. I don't think it is sloppy editing, but a telling of a timeline of events as they happened. The extra-canonical books need to be read in order to help make sense of the mish-mash the Genesis account provides.

I'm not a scholar, far from it but I am interested in what Genesis has to say to us.
I am a creationist who believes in evolution within a species.

a reply to: Astrocyte

It may be surprising, indeed, overwhelming, to recognize that everything which lives on our planet moves towards a single point.

You have me hooked already ...as I paint this often in my work ... "The Primum Mobile" Prime movement

Where can one find a good translation that keeps it's mystical and poetical quality please

a reply to: artistpoet

A fascinating read about interpretation of the Bible is Edgar Cayce's story of the Bible. It's amazing!! Gives the reader jaw dripping interpretation that makes sense!

a reply to: MamaJ

Thank you ... I shall look it up

originally posted by: fatkid
Can you provide some context?

This sums it up pretty well:
Two Versions of the Creation of Man in Genesis

a reply to: crowdedskies

Hey there. I was just wondering why they are excused, if they are a rabbi. Im not trolling or being negative, I would just like to know in order to expand my knowledge. Thanks