EU demands Apple pay Ireland up to 13 billion euros in tax

a reply to: ketsuko

Apple is the beneficiary and underpaid it's taxes therefore gaining an advantage over its competitors. They are not some innocent party who have accidentally underpaid, they have deliberately attempted to minimise their tax using methods that they would have known to be potentially illegal.

One of the main points of these rules is to prevent large companies playing of countries within the single market in a race to the bottom for tax.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: ketsuko

That sounds just about right.

I don't pretend to know a great deal about this, but sounds as if the EU is involved because its not getting its cut. Some unelected "official" needs a new pair of shoes, apparently.

It doesn't matter, you are in the EU, or you are not, it's not supposed to be Las Vegas!

a reply to: ScepticScot

Part of the single market rules is prohibiting state aid to companies. A preferential tax rate to an individual company is state aid which gave Apple an unfair competitive advantage. The EU is entirely within its rights here.

That is not a fault of Apple but of Ireland.

Again, EU has no standing to go after Apple. At most, EU can go after Ireland who would then have to change up terms on Apple, who in turn could go after Ireland.

Ireland at this point would have to make a choice of heading to an outside government that none of its people voted for or leaving the EU in order to keep businesses and the jobs associated with them from leaving them.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ScepticScot

Part of the single market rules is prohibiting state aid to companies. A preferential tax rate to an individual company is state aid which gave Apple an unfair competitive advantage. The EU is entirely within its rights here.

That is not a fault of Apple but of Ireland.

Again, EU has no standing to go after Apple. At most, EU can go after Ireland who would then have to change up terms on Apple, who in turn could go after Ireland.

Ireland at this point would have to make a choice of heading to an outside government that none of its people voted for or leaving the EU in order to keep businesses and the jobs associated with them from leaving them.

The EU is saying to Eire, that Eire must reclaim the money from Apple, that's what its all about. Any blame is squarely with the Irish government, but by feck, if Apple was ever morally right just to pay 60 quid in taxes for every million quid they earned then they are just as to blame, as they are as a willing part of what amounts to a scam. The sooner people reailse that the better. All the EU is doing in fact, is calling out Eire to put their money where their mouth was.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: ketsuko

Apple is the beneficiary and underpaid it's taxes therefore gaining an advantage over its competitors. They are not some innocent party who have accidentally underpaid, they have deliberately attempted to minimise their tax using methods that they would have known to be potentially illegal.

One of the main points of these rules is to prevent large companies playing of countries within the single market in a race to the bottom for tax.

Again ... what part of Ireland is the governmental entity who made this contract in violation of the rules do you not get?

It is not Apple's responsibility to know the law better than Ireland because Apple does not write Irish law. Generally, Irish government does that. If Irish officials wrote a contract in violation of EU law, then this is on them. It was their responsibility to know what restrictions they had to set in the contract, not Apple's.

The other question is whether or not this law was in place before or after the contract was made.

a reply to: smurfy

No, if it were Vegas, we wouldn't be hearing about this...

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas...

As I said, I don't pretend to be an expert in these matters. Seems to me, if Ireland makes the agreement with Apple, the EU shouldn't be involved...

Lets get back to topic guys. Seriously Apple is USA company. EU was create by USA to form a block against Russia. Basically US owns both of them. All of Euro must attack Russia or China or other countries when a full scale war starts under the alliance of NATO. NATO is under control of US military. UK is trying to separate itself from US because it is not dumb enough to follow US order since Iraqi war. Also under NATO, UK must help either way which is kind of pointless.

Every other Europeans country is not stupid to pit against Asia. US and British Gov is trying to create another 8 nation alliance(world alliance) war against China because they are raging the fact that their companies(mostly US) ran to China. US wants to maintain control by having US companies only to sell stuff to rest of the world(Look at the worlds military market, who sell the most stuff?). China is the main threat market wise. Russia is the main threat military wise because its land is very big.

US went to middle east in hopes they can get Middle Easterns(made of mostly Muslims) to side with them like old times. Since Soviet Union no longer exist NATO should not exist either. NATO still exists, so Islamic countries sees it as a threat instead.

Now lets talk about India. India is basically on its own other than being in BRIC. US is also trying to get India to side with them. India is not playing their game to strike first. India is rising like China. US also blocks Indian market because it wants to maintain control of entire market system. India is no fool, but we all know India has its own agenda as it pits against China. India is also tempting an asian alliance against China since South Chinese Sea issue. Who will fall for it? Philippines says no we don't want war. Duterte prevents Philly-Chinese War which would drag rest of Asia and US against China as India will try to invade China. US has been tempting all countries to side against Russia-Chinese alliance.

This makes India actually Neutral but wants to invade China and Pakistan. China is neutral but wants to get rid of US. Russia on the hand has no choice but to support China because rest of Asia will just support US. Canada...? Under NATO, they must help. Unless they choose to stay out of the war through popular votes.

So what needs to happen?
#1 End NATO treaty.
#2 UK leaves EU and support Canada(bigger land = better).
#3 Asian alliance against China needs to stop and do a joint talk with China without US, India, or Western allies.
#4 India needs to fix itself and call for peace with Pakistan.
#5 US civilians needs to takeover US itself with the help of Western Europe/Canada.
#6 Western Europe needs to support Russia to counter/stop possible Islamic Invasion.
#7 Forget Israel. Turn Israel into a multicultural place. No more Islamic, Jews, or Christian(like the Crusade) only.
#8 Worldwide alliance against all religious fanatics, drug lords and mad science.
#9 Finally end all Nazi or Zionism belief's system and start a new Earth Empire under Human Race.
#10 Clean tech, Clean tech for every country! Joint build.
#11 Start joint projects for Space colonization under Earth Empire. All projects will be filmed using camera and shown to the world. How it's made Spacecrafts? They will be taught in schools even flying the ships.
#12 Ban moon mining! No one should crack the moon.

a reply to: paraphi

This is unsurprising. Apple, as well as Google, Amazon, Facebook, Starbucks and a whole host of so called "global" companies have been avoiding paying tax where they are doing business.

Good on them. I hope more individuals and businesses figure out how to dodge taxes.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: ketsuko

Apple is the beneficiary and underpaid it's taxes therefore gaining an advantage over its competitors. They are not some innocent party who have accidentally underpaid, they have deliberately attempted to minimise their tax using methods that they would have known to be potentially illegal.

One of the main points of these rules is to prevent large companies playing of countries within the single market in a race to the bottom for tax.

Again ... what part of Ireland is the governmental entity who made this contract in violation of the rules do you not get?

It is not Apple's responsibility to know the law better than Ireland because Apple does not write Irish law. Generally, Irish government does that. If Irish officials wrote a contract in violation of EU law, then this is on them. It was their responsibility to know what restrictions they had to set in the contract, not Apple's.

The other question is whether or not this law was in place before or after the contract was made.

Tax law is not contract law.

Unless you believe that you could roll up in Ireland and negotiate your rate of income tax?

Apple used it's size and influence to get a preferential tax deal that was against the rules and that would not be available to other companies. The EU rulling just confirms it was against the rules.

This is a rulling about unfair competition, Apple has benefited illegally in comparison to other companies.

Ireland is opposed to this rulling as it wants to retain the ability to give individual tax rates, however if it wants to be part of the EU it has to play by EU rules. Pretty simple really.

originally posted by: makemap
EU was create by USA to form a block against Russia. Basically US owns both of them.

Sorry, but the EU was not created by the US. Felt that pointing out this error was important lest you start believig it.

To topic.

Whether the EU was right, or wrong, the point of the OP was to question whether the tax avoidance measures of companies like Apple should have been addressed, rather than this silliness where Ireland are being "ordered" to reclaim taxes they don't want!

Ireland don't want the taxes, but those countries where Apple (and others) do business who receive no taxes should get their share. For examle, Apple paid £12M in tax in the UK in 2015 on a turnover of £2billion.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: makemap
EU was create by USA to form a block against Russia. Basically US owns both of them.

Sorry, but the EU was not created by the US. Felt that pointing out this error was important lest you start believig it.

To topic.

Whether the EU was right, or wrong, the point of the OP was to question whether the tax avoidance measures of companies like Apple should have been addressed, rather than this silliness where Ireland are being "ordered" to reclaim taxes they don't want!

Ireland don't want the taxes, but those countries where Apple (and others) do business who receive no taxes should get their share. For examle, Apple paid £12M in tax in the UK in 2015 on a turnover of £2billion.

I agree , the issue is that while funnelling all your European profits through one country regardless of where they are earned, while morally dubious and unfair is not illegal.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Apple used it's size and influence to get a preferential tax deal that was against the rules and that would not be available to other companies. The EU rulling just confirms it was against the rules. This is a rulling about unfair competition, Apple has benefited illegally in comparison to other companies. Ireland is opposed to this rulling as it wants to retain the ability to give individual tax rates, however if it wants to be part of the EU it has to play by EU rules. Pretty simple really.

^--- That´s how I see it, too.

Every one is missing one point of the story as to why the EU is going after Apple. The major sticking point is that Apple booked all of its sales from the EU market to a non existent HQ in Ireland. The revenue from those sales should have been taxed in the region of the sale, not being booked in Ireland that has a better company tax rate.
It happens all the time. I am aware that Microsoft when software is purchased in Australia books the transaction to their Singapore office instead of Australia due to the tax rate.

a reply to: ozzieman

They're not talking sales tax here but corporate tax which is the tax governments place on profits and is based off where the company is located not where a good is sold.

a reply to: paraphi

Nope it totally was created by US.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.sott.net...

Why do you think EU is listening to US instead of the world? Not even their own population they care for to begin with.

Look at the stock market it is Euro + USD combined. Euro is picking off European countries one at a time and enforcing English language.

When Soviet Union fell. US took ego to a new advantage. Now US is putting bases in Central Asia. UK is the biggest idiot in history today. They think they are being helped. But they are stuck on that dumb island. UK will be stabbed in the back later on. You shall see. This is exactly what happens when you don't support your colonies like Canada during WW1-WW2.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: ozzieman

They're not talking sales tax here but corporate tax which is the tax governments place on profits and is based off where the company is located not where a good is sold.

That is the point. Companies making huge profits selling goods or services in one country but having a registered head office where all the profit are registered in another that offers a lower tax rate.

a reply to: makemap

Revisionism aside, the US did not create the EU. Look to the historical fact rather than some opinions.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Apple signed a contract with Ireland under Ireland's tax laws. If Ireland was making tax laws in violation of EU rules, that is NOT Apple's problem; it's Ireland's and the EU needs to go after them.

Look, long story short, my husband works a corporate job that does business in the EU, all the different countries.

When they do business with country A or country B, the standards are not going to necessarily be the same, neither are the terms. But they trust each country's legal people to get the terms right. They do not run them to Brussels and second guess it all. They assume each member state is jumping through all the appropriate hoops when they are hammering out the terms of any deal.

The trust that each state is staying on the right side of Brussels and then setting whatever standards they find acceptable in the whole process.

In this case, Ireland dropped the ball, so it's Ireland that the EU should be upset with.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: makemap

Revisionism aside, the US did not create the EU. Look to the historical fact rather than some opinions.

If not US then the ones who are playing the game is of US. After WW2 they ran to US. Came back from US and taken over Europe. US is currently the one that is allowing the rest of Europe to repeat war against Asia and Russia. India can't make a single move yet because they know Western alliance don't truly support them. Japan is out of the game since WW2. Japanese invasion of China will destroy her for once. As much as the Jap governments wants to takeover China. It will never happen this time. Middle East is a complete mess. We truly do not know who supports who.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ScepticScot

Apple signed a contract with Ireland under Ireland's tax laws. If Ireland was making tax laws in violation of EU rules, that is NOT Apple's problem; it's Ireland's and the EU needs to go after them.

Look, long story short, my husband works a corporate job that does business in the EU, all the different countries.

When they do business with country A or country B, the standards are not going to necessarily be the same, neither are the terms. But they trust each country's legal people to get the terms right. They do not run them to Brussels and second guess it all. They assume each member state is jumping through all the appropriate hoops when they are hammering out the terms of any deal.

The trust that each state is staying on the right side of Brussels and then setting whatever standards they find acceptable in the whole process.

In this case, Ireland dropped the ball, so it's Ireland that the EU should be upset with.

This wasn't some innocent mistake about some local standard, but an organised and elaborate process of avoiding paying anything like the amount of tax it should have across multiple countries.

www.ft.com...