I created the burkini to give women freedom, not to take it away

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Actually it was the topic of dinner conversation last week with a student who is here from Saudi Arabia. My mothers husbands nephew.
Anyway, within their culture he said many of the women who wear it, feel superior to those who do not. I'm just throwing in the perspective from someone who lived there for his 1st 20 years(been here a year)..take it for what it's worth, I'm not saying all do..i'm just saying it's not always oppression.
Peace.

a reply to: Christosterone

a reply to: ElectricFeel

But, that's a GOOD religion, see... googling "nuns at the beach" will return many good Christian nuns (whose religion imposes this "garb", by the way) having fun in their religious attire. Who would THINK of banning these women of God from a day at the beach? Nuns are WELCOME to express their religion at the beach!

a reply to: vonclod

Well, I suppose I should take the word of this student instead of my years of experience working with Muslims and going to their homes...

Actually, it's very possible that SOME Muslim women feel a certain moral superiority to those who don't follow their religion... Much like many Christians I know... So, what?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

All I did was refute they wear it because they are forced/oppressed..some are but many are not..what is your point..I feel like you are attacking me??, my extended family is Muslim.

a reply to: vonclod

I was only disagreeing with this statement:

originally posted by: vonclod
they feel morally/spiritually superior to those women who do not.

I didn't mean to attack you. A disagreement isn't an attack.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Fair enough,
I was just relating what was said, it is from a male Saudi's perspective though.
He has been in Canada for a good year, and has learned some different perspectives and values..mostly from my mother
She is married to a Muslim but is not herself and does not take any sh#t

originally posted by: odzeandennz
what if all Muslims converted to Buddhism, i wonder what the world would be like...

You do know there are Buddhist terrorists?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: ElectricFeel

But, that's a GOOD religion, see... googling "nuns at the beach" will return many good Christian nuns (whose religion imposes this "garb", by the way) having fun in their religious attire. Who would THINK of banning these women of God from a day at the beach? Nuns are WELCOME to express their religion at the beach!

Nuns are volunteers! Nobody is threatening them! There is no penalty for not wearing the garb! And what is it with you always trying to compare Islam to Christians? Christians arent out waging war across the planet.

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: ElectricFeel

But, that's a GOOD religion, see... googling "nuns at the beach" will return many good Christian nuns (whose religion imposes this "garb", by the way) having fun in their religious attire. Who would THINK of banning these women of God from a day at the beach? Nuns are WELCOME to express their religion at the beach!

Nuns are volunteers! Nobody is threatening them! There is no penalty for not wearing the garb! And what is it with you always trying to compare Islam to Christians? Christians arent out waging war across the planet.

There is no penalty for not wearing the garb in France either. Anyone wearing a Burka in France has "volunteered" to wear it.

Nobody is saying that it's ok to force a woman to wear a burka against her will. Its about allowing freedom of choice (in France).

originally posted by: Syphon

There is no penalty for not wearing the garb in France either. Anyone wearing a Burka in France has "volunteered" to wear it.

Under threat of force from their community.

Nobody is saying that it's ok to force a woman to wear a burka against her will. Its about allowing freedom of choice (in France).

That's EXACTLY what you're doing. You're just claiming none of them are forced too which is INSANE.

a reply to: TheBulk

The difference is Government. Yes many may feel forced or pressured to wear a burka by their peers, but there is no legal repercussions for shirking the desires of her peers. The issue then is the attitude of a segment, large or small, of the Muslim population regarding womens rights and freedoms. You won't change that by banning the Burkini.

If this were a Muslim country where wearing a burka is a requirement for women by law I would agree totally that its oppressive. Once you remove choice it is oppression. In France they are free to make a choice.

-considers this whole discussion-

ok, so whoever believes banning clothes people choose to wear in public because it symbolizes a religion that they find distasteful can simply leave the west.

I dislike islam. One major reason I dislike islam is because of their moral police.

if you call yourself a "moralist" and demanding what is right/good and wrong/bad, and weighing in on..clothes.
YOU are the same exact thing as what most westerners dislike about islam. you literally are the monster you want to fight.

Sometimes I wonder if some threads are simply sociological tests to see how ironic or idiotic people are..surely this can't be a legit viewpoint from a supposedly westernized mindset.

All things I dislike should be banned btw..starting with console gamers.

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Syphon

There is no penalty for not wearing the garb in France either. Anyone wearing a Burka in France has "volunteered" to wear it.

Under threat of force from their community.

Nobody is saying that it's ok to force a woman to wear a burka against her will. Its about allowing freedom of choice (in France).

That's EXACTLY what you're doing. You're just claiming none of them are forced too which is INSANE.

legal citation needed showing people are forced to wear the burka

originally posted by: Grambler
I am very critical of much of the way Islam is practiced, and I have criticized the lefts political correctness in calling out much of the anti-liberal (liberal in the freedom sense not the political one) behavior that occurs in the Islamic world.

However, I think this burkini ban is ridiculous. Banning this is a form of banning freedom of expression, and I am totally against it.

I can see both sides. For the Muslim women, this IS a step toward their freedom as it lets them get out to a place in a way that is better than they had before.

However, for Western women, we know what happens when you get a critical mass of Muslims in an area ... they stop tolerating you in your preferred bathing suit of choice and start demanding that you conform to their choice.

It is highly possible that only reason this burkini chick is able to get burkinis onto other Muslim women is precisely because they live in a place like France where Muslims are still under pressure to conform to Western ideals and not the other way around. She might discover that if the critical mass were reached, she and her cohort would quickly find themselves smothered back into the household again.

It was stated that this legislation was to protect Muslim women from racist backlashes by certain members of the French public. In an attempt to make them NOT stand out as clearly Muslim particularly in light of the Muslim family that was attacked by Corsican locals a couple of weeks ago which escalated into a full on fight between both groups

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
It was stated that this legislation was to protect Muslim women from racist backlashes by certain members of the French public. In an attempt to make them NOT stand out as clearly Muslim particularly in light of the Muslim family that was attacked by Corsican locals a couple of weeks ago which escalated into a full on fight between both groups

And in Muslim countries where wearing a Burka is enforced the supposed reasoning is that it protects women from sexual attacks by men. So in both cases instead of allowing a woman to make a choice for herself the government has stepped in punishing the potential victims. Apparently France doesn't think its citizens should be expected to NOT beat on women wearing burkas, and men in the UAE can't be expected NOT to rape a woman if she isn't covered head to toe. Bass-ackwards.

Sounds like they are making laws for quick results, which will probably end up making more problems and tension in the short run. Ideally, you would want these oppressed women to be exposed to your culture and come around gradually to embrace French culture. That would have a more lasting impact. You are going to get better results in the long term than trying to criminalize ideals. If a balding man with a keg for a belly can wear a speedo then they should be allowed to wear their stupid Bhurkinis. More often than not, I will side with personal freedom over creating more oppressive laws.

Isn't her argument about freedom for women, like giving a prisoner in solitary, 1 hour a week in the yard with other inmates?

I see this burka/hijab trend here in HK, more and more.

It's a real contrast to the lifestyle, even tho the Chinese are very modest as a whole.

Bathing suits for muslim women, an interesting concept.

France is it's own country, right? Like Saudi Arabia, their country, their laws.

So no one has a problem that the woman's husband, male relatives are misogynists and probably homophobes?

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: Christosterone

I understand what you are saying, approaching it from a political, western point of view. I don't even say that I disagree.

But social trends evolve also, and this takes time. Maybe next year, they will be designed to come to the knee, and the elbow. Then in a couple of years, sleeveless. It takes time. The women will throw off this oppression, in most areas of their lives. But it won't be done quickly. It will be done in steps like this burkini. We can be patient, because we too had some ugly moments in our social evolutions/revolutions, and we still do.

There was a time when a woman showing a bit of ankle in the US was scandalous and whorish. Now its prudish to wear shorts which cover more than 40% of the butt.

France should calm down. If they did, eventually, in baby-steps as you describe,French Muslim women will be unleashing their hairy armpits and breasts upon the world just as the atheist French women do.