Helel ben Shachar

a reply to: Sahabi

Correct, and it's a lower case "gods" used in Psalm 82. God said they are "gods" (lower case) in the essence that He gave man authority to sit in judgment over the people. El is the generic for God, (the true God), Elyon is the generic for gods, (lower case).

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Elyon is always translated as "Most High". The "Bene Elohim" are the sons of El, or lesser gods. Then "Elohim" may refer to El, or may refer to lesser gods depending on contextual usage.

It's a reoccurring hierarchy as corroborated by the Canaanite religion.

Most High: El Elyon
Father: El
Son: YHWH

Most High: Elyon
Father: El
Son: Baal

Most High: Anu
Father: Enlil
Son: Marduk

Most High: Uranus
Father: Cronus
Son: Zeus

a reply to: Sahabi

That's terrible Hebrew, "the Most High" is another title for God. "Bene Ha'Elohyim" means "sons of God" (angels), "El" means God (generic title used for true and false gods), YHWH is the only proper Name for God, "Yeshua" or "Yeshu" is the Son, and means "YHWH is salvation".

It God right back to my earlier statement, the Tenakh uses only 1 proper Name for God, but scores of titles.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

It is transliteration of the Hebrew to English, we have JHVH or LORD. Then John should be Yohn and James Yames. Lets be consistent if you are going to change English transliterations to represent what you believe.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

How can it be a transliteration? Hebrew doesn't have a J letter or J sound. A transliteration means taking a foreign word directly to a new language without translating it, just taking it exactly as it is.

Yeshua/Yeshu is a transliteration to English. "Jews" isn't even what they call themselves, they say "Yehudim". There is no letter J or a J sound in Hebrew, it's non-existant. John and James are translations, not transliteration. In Hebrew John is Yochanan, and James in Hebrew is Ya'aqov.

Therefore, this statement is the height of blashemy:

JHWH is correct over YHWH. JHWH is Jehovah while YHWH is a name of a Greek god of the intellectuals known as Yahweh the Two are not the same. Yahweh is a false God you promote as the one true God.

You're more than welcome to translate the Hebrew YHWH into Jehovah, but realize that's not a Hebrew word, they have no J sound in their language. The Name as it appears in the Tenakh over 3000 times is "YHWH", and it's pronounced (YAH-vey) or (YAH-wey), emphasis on the first syllable.

oops

originally posted by: ZoeEleutheria
If you where a Christian in early times you'd of thought an angel named Lucifer tried to takeover heaven and was transformed into Satan after being expelled from heaven.
...
I have never heard anyone satisfactorily explain who Helel is in Isaiah. It's in an Oracle about the downfall of Babylon and not the actual name of the person spoken to who is the King of Babylon and not an angel.
...
So if anyone actually knows anything about this Helel I would love to hear it. ...

Questions From Readers: Is Lucifer a name that the Bible uses for Satan?

In short, no.

The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.—Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.
...
The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of “the god of this system of things”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan.

Remember the ... indicates I left out some details from the link that someone might be interested in.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

El is not a generic title it is the name of a Canaanite God and the Hebrew God of Abraham.

Epithets with "El" are adjectives describing aspects of the one God El. El Shaddai, El Roi, El Elyon all refer to the God of the Canaanites and Hebrews.

And his name is El.

His grandson is Baal who is the same as Yahweh.

You let your Christian blinders prevent you from having knowledge of the origins of the Abrahamic faiths, which is Canaan.

Again not a generic word a name. Elohim is the plural term that means the whole pantheon of God's including El and Asherah.

Asherah is El/God's wife's name and not a title either.

When Jews say God they don't say El they say Adon or HaShem. Those are generics.

What's confusing you is that Judaism is not a true monotheistic faith, there are many gods and always were. You will never accept this, I know, but it's true so I will say it to death.

But Israel went publicly monotheistic around 600 BC and only then did it become a generic word for God and Elohim became a name for one God even though it's obviously plural and means Gods. Or Mighty Ones, take your pick.

In truth nothing changes.

Go in the internet and look up Ras Shamra cuneiform tablets El Dagon Baal Asherah.

All appear in the Bible and are names. Baal can mean lord too which is why YHWH is always rendered Lord. Because YHWH is Baal. Or was.

This is very easily confirmed by research.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

It sucks that you aren't able to stomach the truth but Sahabi is spot on.

We all know from your comments that you accept nothing outside of doctrine and dogma but neither of those words mean truth they are man made ideas and rules.

While no matter how many times you tell yourself mainstream Christianity is a and the true religion there is no such thing in reality as no one has ever met God.

a reply to: deignostian

El is not a generic title it is the name of a Canaanite God and the Hebrew God of Abraham.

Epithets with "El" are adjectives describing aspects of the one God El. El Shaddai, El Roi, El Elyon all refer to the God of the Canaanites and Hebrews.

And his name is El.

Nope, "El" in Hebrew is a generic word "God", in the scripture it's used for the true God and is capitalized, and it's used for a false god/gods and lower case. The plural of it is "Elohyim" and that means Gods. Thus is basic Hebrew language.

204 times its used in the Tenakh for YHWH and it's capitalized, 16 times for a false god and it's lower case. It's no different than in English we have the title "God", but when we use a proper name we will say Yahweh. Or in a secular example we say "President" as a generic title for the name Barack Obama. His name isn't President, just as God's Name isn't El.

Hebrew even does confound words, "Bethel" means "house of God", it's made by adding El to the 2nd letter of the Hebrew alphabet which is Better. In pictographs form, the Bet in Hebrew is the shape of a house. Bet + El = Bethel (house of God)

His grandson is Baal who is the same as Yahweh.

Elijah pretty much proved that false on Mt. Carmel in 1 Kings chapter 18.

When Jews say God they don't say El they say Adon or HaShem. Those are generics.

They're ALSO generics, there are hundreds of generic titles for God, only one proper Name. ha'Shem in Hebrew just means "the Name".

originally posted by: deignostian
a reply to: NOTurTypical

...
This is very easily confirmed by research.

Baal: Insight, Volume 1

(Baʹal) [Owner; Master].

...
4. In the Scriptures, the Hebrew word baʹʽal is employed with reference to (1) a husband as owner of his wife (Ge 20:3); (2) landowners (Jos 24:11, ftn); (3) “owners of the nations” (Isa 16:8, ftn); (4) “confederates” (literally, “owners [masters] of a covenant”) (Ge 14:13, ftn); (5) owners or possessors of tangibles (Ex 21:28, 34; 22:8; 2Ki 1:8, ftn); (6) persons or things having something that is characteristic of their nature, manner, occupation, and the like, for example, an archer (literally, “owner of arrows”) (Ge 49:23), a “creditor of the debt” (literally, “owner of a debt of his hand”) (De 15:2), “anyone given to anger” (literally, “owner of anger”) (Pr 22:24), “judicial antagonist” (literally, “owner of judgment”) (Isa 50:8, ftn); (7) Jehovah (Ho 2:16); (8) false gods (Jg 2:11, 13).

The term hab·Baʹʽal (the Baal) is the designation applied to the false god Baal. The expression hab·Beʽa·limʹ (the Baals) refers to the various local deities thought of as owning or possessing and having influence over particular places.

I hope you're not arguing that all of the ones above are the same false god Baal...but it is what your way of thinking (your logical pathway) seems to lead to when applied consistently. Unless I misunderstood your words, pardon if I did but I was reminded of Ecclesiastes 1:9 again (NW):

What has been is what will be,
And what has been done will be done again;
There is nothing new under the sun.

At times in Israel’s history Jehovah was referred to as “Baal,” in the sense of his being the Owner or Husband of the nation. (Isa 54:5) Also, the Israelites may have improperly associated Jehovah with Baal in their apostasy. The latter appears to be borne out by Hosea’s prophecy that the time would come when Israel, after going into and being restored from exile, would repentantly call Jehovah “My husband,” and no more “My owner” (“My Baal,” AT). The context suggests that the designation “Baal” and its associations with the false god would never again pass the lips of the Israelites. (Ho 2:9-17)

YHWH does not mean "the LORD", "the Lord", or "God", that would be a deceptive translation since there are already Hebrew words for "lord" (adonai) and "god" (with multiple grammatical variants depending on the context, such as El being a grammatical variant of Elohim, meaning "god" or "gods" depending on the context).

God: Insight, Volume 1

GOD

Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18, 19) The Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5, 6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.—Ps 96:5; see GODS AND GODDESSES.

Hebrew Terms. Among the Hebrew words that are translated “God” is ʼEl, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men. It is also used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha (meaning “God Is Salvation”) and Michael (“Who Is Like God?”). In some places ʼEl appears with the definite article (ha·ʼElʹ, literally, “the God”) with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods.—Ge 46:3; 2Sa 22:31; see NW appendix, p. 1567.

At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God” (not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).

The plural form, ʼe·limʹ, is used when referring to other gods, such as at Exodus 15:11 (“gods”). It is also used as the plural of majesty and excellence, as in Psalm 89:6: “Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God [bi·venehʹ ʼE·limʹ]?” That the plural form is used to denote a single individual here and in a number of other places is supported by the translation of ʼE·limʹ by the singular form The·osʹ in the Greek Septuagint; likewise by Deus in the Latin Vulgate.

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [ʼElo·himʹ] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.

The title ʼElo·himʹ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator. It appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number. (Ge 1:1–2:4) In him resides the sum and substance of infinite forces.

At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo·himʹ, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called benehʹ ha·ʼElo·himʹ, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·himʹ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).

The word ʼelo·himʹ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. However, these gods were clearly not trinities.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon); 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk).

At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.

In many places in the Scriptures ʼElo·himʹ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·ʼElo·himʹ, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54; brackets his.

Oh and NOTurTypical is doing the typical thing (in his first sentence) that Trinitarians have been taught to do regarding classifying the word "god" as either a (the?) true god or false god/gods and ignoring the broader meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used to translate to "God", "god" or "gods" (angels are gods but they are not false gods when they are loyal to Jehovah and do not seek worship for themselves, they are simply divine beings, spirit beings, that's why they're called gods, see definition 7 and 8 from the Hebrew dictionary below; one caveat, ignore "ghost" and everything that comes after i.e., I've discussed details why before which are related to the myth of the immortal soul). I call it typical because that's what I've seen Shazoolo (and others) do in this video after 1:00. If you want to save time you can skip everything after 5:15 to go the 2nd part where the subject of angels being spirits (gods) is discussed (which also clarifies every instance Jesus is referred to as a god, a divine being, such as at John 1:1c):

a reply to: whereislogic

It's "typical" because it's a simple fact of the Hebrew language. The generic word "god" is El in Hebrew. I used the example of Bethel, meaning "house of god". 2nd letter if the Hebrew alphabet which is Bet + El, the pictograph of Bet is a house/tent and adding El means house of god.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
I was referring to your first sentence.

And earlier you said:

"El" means God (generic title used for true and false gods)...

Doing the same thing or expressing the same way of thinking about it.

a reply to: whereislogic

I'm sorry, my fault. I misread your post then.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical


Nope, "El" in Hebrew is a generic word "God", in the scripture it's used for the true God and is capitalized, and it's used for a false god/gods and lower case. The plural of it is "Elohyim" and that means Gods. Thus is basic Hebrew language.
204 times its used in the Tenakh for YHWH and it's capitalized, 16 times for a false god and it's lower case. ..
...

This is a completely false statement.In ancient Hebrew there were no lower case letter distinctions, it is a modern convention believed by the ignorant to propagate their doctrines of men.

double post

God had to show the prophet Ezekiel what these Lucifer
lovers were doing in the dark (Ezekiel 8:1-18)

Interesting the Lucifer lovers now find it comfortable
to no longer hide in the dark, but now spread their
heretical teachings in the light of day.

2000 years later, and we can see how Christ is
vindicated to rebuke the spirit that drove the
Pharisees, Sadducess, Scribes and Lawyers -
(which is still alive and well)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Psa 2:1-4

a reply to: Rex282

You're correct, and I never said it was a lower case El, I said when used for a false god it's a lower case g. That's how it's designated in our English bibles.

ETA:

I see why you got that impression, I didn't word my other post clearly, let's try it this way. El appears 16 times in the Tenakh for a false god, and it's designated with a lower case "god" (In English). Over 200 times El in the Tenakh is speaking of the true God in a generic reference and it's capitalized "God" in the text (English). That should be clear.