Atlantis and the Bible (2 parts)

a reply to: damonjc

I have read bits and pieces, and might have read the whole thing at some point, though it's been a long time, if so. A lot of that is very colorful, as I recall, and more likely to be embellished story-telling technique, as opposed to accurate history.

Not familiar with those books at all. Sounds interesting, at least. What issues does he see with the way those periods were dated?

The food of Noah wasn't that recent, by most reckoning. Several thousand years before that, as I recall. Definitely global, for that one, and there is a lot of evidence for global flooding. Hancock alone has made the case for that.

For Atlantis, there are many theories. One the hubby has (he's a bit of a history buff) has a lot of credibility. In that case, the location is Thera. The volcanic eruption there was a major one, and widely believed to be responsible for the downfall of the Minoans. In that case, they are likely related to the Philistines, who were known as sea people, and who lived a good fifty miles inland, refusing to go near the water! Can't blame them, there, all considered. They worshipped a goddess called Dagon, whose figurines were mermaid-like. However, there is archaeological evidence that some other civilization might have been around there as well, different from them. A civilization on Thera would have been utterly obliterated. Greece and Turkey, along the coastline, suffered as well. There are Egyptian records, shared with the historian Solon, of Greek history for which the Greeks didn't have records, and mention of trade with Greece and another civilization that simply stopped abruptly. This eruption left ash in ancient trees, for a good 3-4 years, compared to 2 years for Krakatoa! The western edge of Turkey was quite fertile, and after this time period, the Hittites showed up in Egypt, very different from those around the, and advanced in military tech. Greek coast, same sort of thing; all wiped out. There is a lot of evidence for all of this, supporting the idea of Thera being a good candidate for Atlantis.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: damonjc

(Re the Epic of Gilgamesh)
I have read bits and pieces, and might have read the whole thing at some point, though it's been a long time, if so. A lot of that is very colorful, as I recall, and more likely to be embellished story-telling technique, as opposed to accurate history.

Yes, a lot of it is embellished storytelling, but where does the reality end and the storytelling begin? For instance, we know Gilgamesh was a real king, but was Enkidu a real person?

My point is, if we're comparing apples to apples, applying the same standards of interpretation to Genesis 1-3 as we are to the Epic of Gilgamesh, then just because the text says "and the evening and the morning were the X day," does that have to mean it's literal?

Not familiar with those books at all. Sounds interesting, at least. What issues does he see with the way those periods were dated?

There are quite a few issues, not the least of which is that the 21st and 22nd dynasties overlap, rather than being sequential. That means that, prior to about 850 BCE, dates in ancient Egypt would need to be adjusted downwards by at least 150 years, potentially up to as much as 400 years.

According to Pharaohs and Kings, there are four main pillars of Egyptian chronology. Rohl deconstructs three of them, showing why they're not as reliable as conventional Egyptologists believe, but leaves the fourth (the dating of the sacking of Thebes by Sennacherib in 664 BCE) intact. My copy is unfortunately in storage right now, or I'd go into more detail.

The food of Noah wasn't that recent, by most reckoning. Several thousand years before that, as I recall. Definitely global, for that one, and there is a lot of evidence for global flooding. Hancock alone has made the case for that.

Hancock has made an excellent case for *A* global flood, several thousand years before 2400 BCE. But apparently there was also one in roughly 2400 BCE as well. Just because Hancock is right doesn't automatically make Rohl wrong. Imho, they're both right.

For Atlantis, there are many theories. One the hubby has (he's a bit of a history buff) has a lot of credibility. In that case, the location is Thera. The volcanic eruption there was a major one, and widely believed to be responsible for the downfall of the Minoans. In that case, they are likely related to the Philistines, who were known as sea people, and who lived a good fifty miles inland, refusing to go near the water! Can't blame them, there, all considered. They worshipped a goddess called Dagon, whose figurines were mermaid-like. However, there is archaeological evidence that some other civilization might have been around there as well, different from them. A civilization on Thera would have been utterly obliterated. Greece and Turkey, along the coastline, suffered as well. There are Egyptian records, shared with the historian Solon, of Greek history for which the Greeks didn't have records, and mention of trade with Greece and another civilization that simply stopped abruptly. This eruption left ash in ancient trees, for a good 3-4 years, compared to 2 years for Krakatoa! The western edge of Turkey was quite fertile, and after this time period, the Hittites showed up in Egypt, very different from those around the, and advanced in military tech. Greek coast, same sort of thing; all wiped out. There is a lot of evidence for all of this, supporting the idea of Thera being a good candidate for Atlantis.

Yes, there are a lot of good candidates for Atlantis. I'm attempting to avoid discussing the where, so I can focus instead on the why.

Damon

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Ha.. I see good point !

You mean where are the borders of Atlantis. (Britain the island).
And i mean the influence of Atlantis (the British empire).

That i talk about the influence is because as in with British empire its influence most have been enormous
because 'Atlantis' pops up in many many legends. Though under different names.

Try as I might, I can't remember the title, but years ago I read a book that theorised Atlantis may have been a civilisation based in the valleys the Black Sea now covers.
It went into great detail about how the rise in the level of the Mediterranean caused the valleys to flood and become the Black Sea. Also gave examples of archeological finds in the anoxic layer of the Black Sea.

Not quite the super advanced society of some stories, but a successful, functioning city state in the time of nomadic hunter gatherers must have looked like the most amazing thing in the world back then.

The big mistake people make is taking Plato far to literally, and others take Plato far too figuratively.

originally posted by: frenchfries
a reply to: TarzanBeta


Look man , I live by my own moral compass and killing is bad even if it's done by God. That's why I can't believe in the God that wrote the bible. With the Bible or the Koran in my hand someone could start a jihad is that good ?

I tend to agree with this sentiment, but there is a perspective you should consider.

If you create a program which has the ability to improve the system or to destroy the system, and it chooses to destroy the system and infect the whole, what do you do? Go on allowing the system to believe it is in charge of you? Go on letting it destroy everything around it?

A human has feelings and torment, yes, but the human also tends to not care about the damage it has done, even to others.

It is the willful ignorance of one's own decisions that causes the pain to continue; not the eradication of us.

a reply to: punkinworks10

So, when reading Plato, one must remember that the dialogues are first and foremost a philosophical exercise, but they are wrapped around an old story handed down since Mycenaean times, when the Minoans dominated the Mediterranean basin and beyond.
If you read the dialogues carefully they are full of clues that show Plato was speaking of the Minoan civilization, which was the first true European civilization, there were many cultures that preceded the Minoans, but they were the first civilization in Europe.
First off, time scales and dimensions must be taken with a HUGE GRAIN OF SALT, from Critias,

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.

I have highlighted the important sections in this paragraph.

'that nine thousand was the sum of years" , The eruption of the volcano at Thera happened in 1632-1628 BCE, a full 1300 years before Plato lived, it might as well have been 9000 years as far as he was concerned, for the languages in which the story was recorded had been long lost or transformed, especially Greek, which saw a 200-400? year period of illiteracy after the late bronze age collapse of approx. 1200 BCE.
Byrd also commented that (earlier) , in this case, second intermediate period texts might not have been accurately read by the later 30th dynasty Egyptians, whom Plato and his presumed ancestors cited.
In light of that we must throw out specifics of the size of the "Atlantean island" and the span of years that transpired since these events happened, as a good story teller will inflate specifics to make the story more dramatic to their audience.
All that being said, there is no doubt that the eruption of the Thera volcano was one of the most dramatic in all of recorded history. Given the fact that no human remains have been found in the ruins of Akrotiri, a suburb of the main city on Thera, shows that there were warning signs of the impending eruption, as most eruptions are preceded by earthquakes.

" and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean"
We know, absolutely, that the caldera at Thera collapsed, hence the "sunk by an earthquake" phrasing, and we also know with out a doubt volcanoes of this type throw out immense quantities of ash and material, one of which is pumice.
With island volcanoes, this pumice, which floats on water, forms pumice rafts, what Plato calls, " an impassable barrier of mud". It is well documented in modern times, and imagine trying to row a ship through a floating 2 meter deep mass of floating pumice.
It took nearly sixty years before Mycenaean mariners reached the island of Thera and found only a sterile landscape of ash and pumice.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Lets move on, Plato also says ,

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters

We now know that the people of Thera took full advantage of the volcanic nature of the island, and had hot and cold water plumbed into their multi story buildings, and that great cisterns were built to capture the abundant rainfall that the fell on the island due to it's rise in elevation on the flanks of the old volcano, that had collapsed in distant antiquity to form the circular ring harbor that is mentioned in Plato, and is illustrated in mosaics found on the island itself.
Also dolphins are an important motif in Theran mosaics as per,

around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins,

It has also been shown that the Minoans were a very martial society, and its though this pan Agean civilization that specific forms of arms and armor spread through the Med., Minoan daggers have been found at stone henge and, i.e. "outside of the pillars of Heracles" , which is where the copper and tin to make bronze came from, which the Minoans controlled the trade of.
So, I ask the those whom are inclined to critical thought, explore what I have laid out here and cast aside the rot of the likes of Hancock and embrace the real history of the middle bronze age, and when you do you will be astounded at the further links to the past and environmental aspects of our history, here is a hint, the foundation of the first palacial period of crete has its its roots in the fall of the Akkadian empire, and evidence can be found in the militarization of Iberia, Gaede as Plato calls it.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Your reasoning in impeccable except for this.

A human has feelings and torment, yes, but the human also tends to not care about the damage it has done, even to others.

In all my travels i've seen again and again that every human does care !
Primitive people that even don't know the bible exist give away their food not being judgemental but kind of hearth. It are these people that have never witnessed a single killing and not condicioned by the system that show us the great love of which every human is capable.

However .. you are right too whit your quote , because western people behave that way. But this is just an artificial state induced by the media.
How many killings have you seen on TV ? How many killings in an average Game. Watch the news , the politics. Don't trust thay neighbour is the message !

The whole system acts like NLP killing away the kindness that is in all of us from a very young age.
Eventually everyone accepts the quote you gave above as the truth.

But sorry man. I don't accept this false truth because it Is a by MSM , the system (or whatever) indoctrinated truth.
Created to produce a race of slaves (like america/west now is). It's Divide and conquer at it's peak. Also many religions (including the Christian one) do the same.

Everyone please please please , don't even think for a moment that people 'tend' not to care. People tend not to care as a result of systematically indoctrination by the system.The true nature of humans is love and care for each other !

a reply to: frenchfries

don't fall for the trap that these "turn every thread into a God discussion" foks.

let's stick to the thread and its good OP!
...

its clear to me that Plato used a old story and didn't really understood what was told to him.
he used Athene's as a reference only to explain, what he filled in emselve, we don't know how often he tryed to explain it to others before it got written down.

in my opinion, Atlantis high civilisation existed before the last ice age, they where the ones that mapped out the constellations, precession of the equinoxes and the like.
they struggled to survive and with internal disagreements, about how to rebuild, they split up in different groups and each left its own footprint in ancient history.

some went to teach other civs some basics, some went to build a legacy, others kept to themselves, a handful tryed to rebuild the old Atlantis civ, etc.
that's why we have story's around the world about Atlantis like foks and their appearances and so on.
.
there is just to much mind baffling artefacts and annomolys to ignore and explane away with the crap they want us to believe about our real history.
...
can't wait until most of these ignorant close minded "academics" ,that make or break promising careers, start the process of turning to dust.
...
the time of going to the library to read up on ones interests is gone.
let the internet freedoms bloom.
and let us enjoy and respect what it brings!
...
if it isn't to you're liking okay, go do something you like.

a reply to: TheBwaap

there is just to much mind baffling artefacts and annomolys to ignore and explane away with the crap they want us to believe about our real history.

So much Artefacts...

Giant Causeway

and all explained as natural by all the qackademics ??? ... Atlantis existed ! history is a lie !

Cheerio !

a reply to: frenchfries

No. Maybe you care, but you're very naive to think many do. When you see people actually caring without worrying about how they are seen, without worrying about if it makes their self feel good, without worrying about being a hero, without putting their deeds on a resume, and without judgment, then you will see someone who cares.

The people that care are the few. The human default is selfishness and there is simply far too much evidence of that.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't love people. It simply means that meeting a genuine and also a kind person, both in the same person, in the face of all despair and in the face of all offenses, is like finding a flower in a lava flow that isn't burned.

originally posted by: TheBwaap
a reply to: frenchfries

don't fall for the trap that these "turn every thread into a God discussion" foks.

let's stick to the thread and its good OP!
...

its clear to me that Plato used a old story and didn't really understood what was told to him.
he used Athene's as a reference only to explain, what he filled in emselve, we don't know how often he tryed to explain it to others before it got written down.

in my opinion, Atlantis high civilisation existed before the last ice age, they where the ones that mapped out the constellations, precession of the equinoxes and the like.
they struggled to survive and with internal disagreements, about how to rebuild, they split up in different groups and each left its own footprint in ancient history.

some went to teach other civs some basics, some went to build a legacy, others kept to themselves, a handful tryed to rebuild the old Atlantis civ, etc.
that's why we have story's around the world about Atlantis like foks and their appearances and so on.
.
there is just to much mind baffling artefacts and annomolys to ignore and explane away with the crap they want us to believe about our real history.

Here's an idea, why not read a real history book, rather than the lies written by pseudo historians.
I read both, I don't see what you're talking about, none of the civilisations of antiquity had any help getting started, to claim they did is cultural racism
Genetics ultimately has destroyed pretty much all the claims of a lost race of civilisers
Pity you don't know anything about that either...

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

The food of Noah wasn't that recent, by most reckoning. Several thousand years before that, as I recall. Definitely global, for that one, and there is a lot of evidence for global flooding. Hancock alone has made the case for that.

Erm... Where is this "evidence" of a global flood?

Please tell me its not from "answers in Genesis" or Creation ministries?

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: punkinworks10

So, when reading Plato, one must remember that the dialogues are first and foremost a philosophical exercise, but they are wrapped around an old story handed down since Mycenaean times...

While plausible, it's unlikely.
That is, where is the story in the Greek tradition? Kept secret until Plato let the cat out of the bag?
If you buy that Solon got it from Egypt, then same problem, different culture.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: punkinworks10

So, when reading Plato, one must remember that the dialogues are first and foremost a philosophical exercise, but they are wrapped around an old story handed down since Mycenaean times...

While plausible, it's unlikely.
That is, where is the story in the Greek tradition? Kept secret until Plato let the cat out of the bag?
If you buy that Solon got it from Egypt, then same problem, different culture.

Harte

Completely agree, the only scenario that works is Solon bringing it back, besides which, there are numerous coastal cities in Greece which were submerged due to Earthquakes and the like, any of which would fit much better than a city which was never submerged...

And if you really want to go with facts
There is only one city which was submerged that the Egyptians would know about while the Greeks wouldn't.

At the end of the Uruk period there was an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak. Polychrome pottery from a destruction level below the flood deposit has been dated to the Jemdet Nasr period (3100–2900 BC). that immediately preceded the Early Dynastic I period

en.wikipedia.org...

The flood killed the King

Ubara-tutu (or Ubartutu) of Shuruppak was the last antediluvian king of Sumer. Ubaratutu lived until the deluge swept over the land, like Lamech, the father of Noah

In Sumerian literature, the son of the King was called Utnapishtim, he was the Sumerian Noah...

originally posted by: Marduk
At the end of the Uruk period there was an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak. Polychrome pottery from a destruction level below the flood deposit has been dated to the Jemdet Nasr period (3100–2900 BC). that immediately preceded the Early Dynastic I period

There's no evidence the Egyptians knew about that or knew much about the history of other nations much before the Greeks took over.

(in the same respect as other countries before 600 BC really didn't know much about Egypt's history.)