I Was A "Professional" 9/11 "Truther" (And I Still Am!)

originally posted by: KillerKell
Because that's STANDARD OPERATING PRODCUEDURE.

According to you, that is!

ALL Evidence is collected and cataloged.

Still babbling, now you are shouting! You really have no clue at all!

Why do you think some is not collected or cataloged?

What would be the point? It is not a NTSB investigation into why a plane crashed.... evidence is collected to find out what happened, we know what happened in this case.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
Because that's STANDARD OPERATING PRODCUEDURE.

According to you, that is!

ALL Evidence is collected and cataloged.

Still babbling, now you are shouting! You really have no clue at all!

Why do you think some is not collected or cataloged?

What would be the point? It is not a NTSB investigation into why a plane crashed.... evidence is collected to find out what happened, we know what happened in this case.

According to me? LMAO!

Do you know what Trace Collection is? It's when we break out tweezers and forceps and scalpels and swabs, man. That's for the REALLY SMALL stuff.

projects.nfstc.org...

Again, I ask what experience do you have with Crime Scene Investigation and Forensics. My experience comes in the form of having been a 31D in the US Army. So while I don't know # about Jet Engines I do know about working a Crime Scene and basic Evidence gathering.

So please, as I've asked numerous times... tell me how YOU think a Crime Scene goes down. Tell me why YOU feel we don't collect all the evidence and catalog it.

I'm waiting. I've asked multiple times now. Still waiting for your view.

Have you been on a Crime Scene? Have you worked one? Have you helped in Evidence Collection or Cataloging? What do you know of these?

But here you go.

www.fbi.gov...
www.fbi.gov...

Study up and stop talking out your ass about collection and catalog procedures. There is no realm of reality in which that hub wouldn't have been collected, verified and cataloged OUTSIDE of direct corruption.

Are you suggestion corruption?

originally posted by: KillerKell
But here you go.

www.fbi.gov...

You should read them - if you had read them you would have seen

The successful investigation and prosecution of crimes require, in most cases, the collection, preservation, and forensic analysis of evidence. Forensic analysis of evidence is often crucial to determinations of guilt or innocence

"most cases"....

They already knew what happened at the Pentagon - it was hit by a 757, Flight 75.

Text

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originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
But here you go.

www.fbi.gov...

You should read them - if you had read them you would have seen

The successful investigation and prosecution of crimes require, in most cases, the collection, preservation, and forensic analysis of evidence. Forensic analysis of evidence is often crucial to determinations of guilt or innocence

"most cases"....

They already knew what happened at the Pentagon - it was hit by a 757, Flight 75.

Oh my god. Wow.

And HOW do they know? They know because they investigate, substantiate and verify. Through investigation.

They don't just say "That guy over there told me there was a shooting, so since I know there was a shooting there's no reason to collect and catalog this gun".

All this states is that in most cases the success of an investigation and the prosecution of the case requires it. It does not say that they skip those stages.

How you infer that is beyond me.

Regardless of if needed for the success and prosecution or not, they still collect and catalog. This is simply telling you that MOST of the time the collecting and cataloging is REQUIRED FOR SUCCESS.

But you never answered my question. What is your experience with Crime Scenes and Evidence Collection? Will you ever in your life answer a question directed at you?

a reply to: KillerKell

The Flight Data Recorder readout identified the aircraft as N644AA. That would be the Boeing 757 known as Flight 77 that day. In case you did not know....and your probably did not...FDRs are encoded with the registry number so that when you do download data it specifies the airframe it came from. So, serial checks of the other parts after that are a pretty moot point.

a reply to: KillerKell

Evidence collection? They pulled parts of the plane out of the building...they had eyewitness testimony that watched it hit...

They got there and said "hey guys, this got hit by flight 75, let's clean this plane out of the rubble and look for survivors."

No evidence collection or thorough investigation was needed to know what happened to the Pentagon.

The only investigation would be to find out HOW and WHY it happened. Not WHAT happened.

originally posted by: cardinalfan0596
a reply to: KillerKell

The Flight Data Recorder readout identified the aircraft as N644AA. That would be the Boeing 757 known as Flight 77 that day. In case you did not know....and your probably did not...FDRs are encoded with the registry number so that when you do download data it specifies the airframe it came from. So, serial checks of the other parts after that are a pretty moot point.

I get this, but the checks are still done. You do all the checks in case something is 'out of place', in case you find something that 'does not belong'.

For instance, nothing stopped multiple things from hitting the Pentagon. Also, Eye Witness Statements had a VARIETY of things hitting the Pentagon (as Eye Witness Statements often are inconsistent over multiple people).

So you verify each part, to ensure they all belong to the same thing. You don't just 'assume' one thing fits because something else did. That's not how Investigations are done, at least not competent and professional ones.

This is how they work with Evidence, through a process of elimination.

Somewhere, there is a Full Report on all this. The problem is, it's been asked for... by people in the US Government. It hasn't been produced. That's an issue.

What should be a done deal isn't. But it SHOULD be. All they have to do is produce the report, which would verify all the information and would identify everything. It exists... FBI Director Robert Mueller ordered it.

Which leads to the question of... why don't the produce the report? I mean, not just in terms of the General Public (which they should)... people in our own Government can't get it.

The quote for that is on a previous page, I think 14, with an Assistant US Attorney General has asked for this very thing... and can't get it.

That's problematic. If they had a Conclusive Report, producing it would be a knock out blow for anyone trying to wrongly keep a conspiracy going.

But what is one to think when the one thing needed, and something they should have readily handy after 15 Years... isn't produced?

My anger is more with the FBI not releasing these reports, which should in it easily answer the question my Boeing Engineers pose, especially when people within our own Government ask for them to be produced.

Now, if we were to fancy reasons why they wouldn't be produced, two major ones would stand out. (1) The information is not Conclusive or (2) they are intentionally withholding information to deceive. I'm sure we would all agree that neither of these reasons would be acceptable to the People of the United States.

I hope you can see that my personal issue, and the issue of the Boeing Engineers, are two separate issues. Their issue just happens to illustrate my issue. My issue is the failure to release proper Reports, their issue is an unidentified item that would easily be identified in the Reports.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: KillerKell

Evidence collection? They pulled parts of the plane out of the building...they had eyewitness testimony that watched it hit...

They got there and said "hey guys, this got hit by flight 75, let's clean this plane out of the rubble and look for survivors."

No evidence collection or thorough investigation was needed to know what happened to the Pentagon.

The only investigation would be to find out HOW and WHY it happened. Not WHAT happened.

"They pulled the parts of the plane out of the building". Right. That's the Collection part. Then comes the Verification part, followed by the Cataloging part. These are steps you don't skip.

You don't skip these parts, even with Eye Witness Accounts... you don't even skip these parts with Confessions.

See, what you are confusing is that this is Criminal. This isn't a plane dropping due to mechanical failure or an Act of God. This is a Criminal Act. Therefore, you treat I like a Crime, which it is.

Which is the difference in this and some plane having an engine failure. For some reason, people are failing to see the difference, and think this is treated like any other 'plane wreck'. This isn't a Plane Wreck, even the part where the plane actually wrecked. To the FBI, every single instance involved with this is a Terrorist Attack, and thus will be treated as such.

The FBI is not the NTSB. The FBI does not follow NTSB rules. The FBI did not investigate this like the NTSB would investigate a Plane Crash.

The FBI investigated this like a Terrorist Attack, because that is what ALL of this is. THAT is the rules ALL of this falls under. Even the parts that involve planes crashing into buildings.

Yet people keep falling back on how the NTSB would do this, and the reasons the NTSB uses to choose whether to reconstruct or not.

The NTSB also had zero authority on any of this investigation, to INCLUDE the parts where Planes Crashing were involved. FBI Director Robert Mueller had the authority, and his request of the NTSB was that they would help pick up pieces and look for Black Boxes. They were nothing more than extra hands to clean up and collect. This was the FBI's show. We know this because the Chair and Co-Chair of the NTSB state this.

This was an FBI case and was handled as an FBI case from front to end. The reasons of the NTSB do not even matter here. Only FBI Investigation and Forensics matter here.

People should be aware and understand that, because it does change many things about how certain steps are handled. Not just in the situations where the physical Planes were involved.

a reply to: KillerKell

Just because no conspiracists site has reported the FBI conducted a parts check or a serial number check does not mean the FBI has not done so. My point, conspiracists are not transparent nor do they look at all the facts. For example. It always about the NIST reports being wrong with the WTC fire collapse. Conspiracists would have you believe its only the NIST the came up with collapse due to fire. They never talk about the insurance company models / reports, the engineering firms, or all the universities that concluded fire is what lead to the collapse of WTC 1,2, and 3. Their only argument is the other reports and models are lies / false. Why would the Universities of other countries lie. If you want the truth, stay away from conspiracists selling books, DVD'S, selling advertising on a website, or pandering for likes on YouTube.

a reply to: neutronflux

So what you are saying, there is no conspiracy theories about 911, am I correct?

The official narratives of 911 have all been proven true and there are no cover up by our government?

The governments Authority is the final word on this event?

The American citizens do not have the right to question our government?

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

The Flight Data Recorder readout identified the aircraft as N644AA. That would be the Boeing 757 known as Flight 77 that day. In case you did not know....and your probably did not...FDRs are encoded with the registry number so that when you do download data it specifies the airframe it came from. So, serial checks of the other parts after that are a pretty moot point.

Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757

So, I started with NTSB, since they are the "go-to" guys when you want a report.. right?

This is what i get...

Summary.

"The Safety Board did not determine the probable cause and does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket. The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 are under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Safety Board provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. " Full report here. NTSB report.

All reports from the NTSB for all 4 planes on Sept 11 are identical.

Ok, sounds reasonable. So lets check with the FBI reports.

www.fbi.gov...
That's all i can find from the FBI.

So, lets go to the 9/11 Commission report.
"At 9:29, the autopilot on American 77 was disengaged; the aircraft was at 7,000 feet and approximately 38 miles west of the Pentagon.59 ....

At 9:34, Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport advised the Secret Service of an unknown aircraft heading in the direction of the White House. American 77 was then 5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon and began a 330-degree turn. At the end of the turn, it was descending through 2,200 feet, pointed toward the Pentagon and downtown Washington. The hijacker pilot then advanced the throttles to maximum power and dove toward the Pentagon.60...

At 9:37:46, American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, traveling at approximately 530 miles per hour.61 All on board, as well as many civilian and military personnel in the building, were killed."

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. The footnote "59, 60, 61" refers to The Flight Path Study of American 77 provided by the NTSB, which no one can find. One person claims to have called the NTSB and the NTSB says they havent done any reports/analysis for any of the aircraft of Sept 11. NTSB phone in DC (202)-314-6000. I tried, but i hit brick walls. Update: 8/11/06 NTSB Flight Path Study released.


My conclusion is, the manever looks possible, for guys like me and you. But for Hani? unlikely. He either got REALLY lucky, or someone/something else was flying that plane. Sure wish we had clear video of a 757 hitting the pentagon to silence all these "Conspiracy theorists". They want us to believe the pentagon is only covered by a parking gate camera? C'mon...


For anyone wanting to do further research on the subject. Almost all the circumstances surrounding 9/11 have similar scenarios. Hell, they didn't even match up the parts found at each site to their air frames via maintenance logs. There is an article out there that states all the parts were returned to United two weeks after Sept 11. Why... so they could refurbish them to put in their parts dept? This is evidence from a crime scene. You dont give it back to the airline. They claim insurance and its over with.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

The government story is said, there is nothing to see here, move along now.

a reply to: KillerKell

Again, no, you don't verify every part. When you know as much about the airplane that hit the Pentagon as they did, you don't worry about verifying every part. It becomes a waste of resources.

a reply to: Informer1958

More false theories among conspiracists than any other group. Dustification? Missiles and holograms. Lasers and holograms? Nukes? Thermite? Exploded charges. Didn't vigorously search WTC debris for evidence. Bodies from flights hitting the WTC never identified / found. Never recovered remains of terrorists. All narratives are false. Conspiracists have a horrible average for being correct.

a reply to: Informer1958

You should have led with the pilots for truth link. Then I could have avoided rereading their idiocy.

a reply to: neutronflux

NIST is a government agency. The rest aren't. Official story means story according to government in this context. Therefore NIST supply the official story which is what is in question. You can't go on and on forever listing every opinion and claim they all have equal relevance. NIST is the one.

I grew up surrounded by university staff. I was told repeatedly in childhood, "Science was hijacked by politics long ago". I've seen the personal ego driven games played with university 'knowledge'. You could link all these university studies you mention, if you can find them. They're still not official in the meaning of 'official story' in this context.

a reply to: Kester

I just didn't mention our universities did I? Universities of Edinburgh fire collapse. Aegis insurance for WTC 7, fire collapse. They did try to get out of the pay off by saying fire collapse due to building not properly designed. Real court case. Private engineering firms. The list is long when you dig past the conspiracists sites. Sickening to wade past the muck to get to real studies. Independent studies / models that concluded fire collapse. What narrative does the conspiracists agree on?

a reply to: neutronflux

I'm right. It's settled.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

You should have led with the pilots for truth link. Then I could have avoided rereading their idiocy.

I agree, these professionals don't know anything, I just don't understand how all of them got professional pilot licences?

Had I just posted gov.org as a source, you would sure find that very credible.

a reply to: neutronflux

More false theories among conspiracists than any other group. Dustification? Missiles and holograms. Lasers and holograms? Nukes? Thermite? Exploded charges.

Yes lets lump that everyone who does not support the official narratives, a Nut Job, a Tin Foil Hat, a silly conspiracy theorist.

Lets not challenge any of the real evidence, but to only ridicule it, I get it, I really do.

There are no conspiracy theories when it comes to exposing "pseudo science" on the government side. As George Bush said in one of his famous speeches, "lets not Liston to Conspiracies theorist when it come to 911".

Conspiracy theorist, are a joke who needs them, right? I am so happy that you have confirmed there are no conspiracy theories and everyone is honest, there is nothing to discuss here, move along.

a reply to: Informer1958

Nope, I think flat earthers are the quintessential conspiracists. I really don't even think it's about what is real, or even what conspiracists believe themselves. It's about what you can get everyone to believe. Are there honest conspiracists, you bet. Dishonest skeptics, got those too. However, insurance agents that concluded fire collapse wanted to find a way to minimize the payout. Engineers concluding fire collapse want to build better buildings if anything to limit their liability. Local investigators dealing with lose of friends and colleagues, and the remains of victims, wanted the real story and justice.

When you dig, and see how conspiracists depend on false narratives, have no physical evidence, and pseudoscience science, it's easy to question conspiracists. Especially the professional conspiracists vs the skeptics who's only reward is truth? The scientific skeptics that debunk in their spare time.