pre pyramid plateau

originally posted by: username74
but this is an irrational fear for egyptology, if the pyramid was a renovated monument,

Only up for speculation if you ignore the evidence such as sealed chambers bearing Khufu's cartouches.

originally posted by: username74 and not constructed from scratch it does not devalue the accumulated learning of egyptology, it doesnt make a century of dedicated work by hundreds of thousands of people untrue. it is just a current misinterpretation of the most obfusicated part of our history and would be an addition to our body of knowledge.
if there is no direct evidence to support such speculation why is it opposed so adamantly by a direct similar lack of evidence?

Because, as I stated, there is abundant evidence for the current view.

Also, the construction management firm Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall estimated about 15 years for the construction of the Great Pyramid back in 1999. Source

Harte

a reply to: Harte

thanks.
will read

a reply to: Harte

"Based on our program management approach and our informed guesses we concluded that the
total project required an average workforce of 13,200 persons and a peak workforce of 40,000
and that it required two to three years of site preparation, five years of pyramid construction,
and two years of ramp removal, decoration, and other ancillary tasks."
hey, harte sound like a job opportunity?
levers and ramps, 5900000 tonnes, plus 5900000 tonnes of ramp i reckon, seasonal workforce, no machines, no metal (well no hard stuff no trees, no pulleys.
i wont be wanting to work with these guys myself, however if you were to tender a contract i would check for penalty clauses!
i know i am cherry picking, i havent finished the source document yet and i think i have read it before but its as close to what i was looking for as i could hope. thanks again.
will comment again when more reasonable!

a reply to: Harte

"Only up for speculation if you ignore the evidence such as sealed chambers bearing Khufu's cartouches."

i would clarify that when i say renovated, that the upper chambers may not be of the first inception.
they would be, as is stated. quite a massive increase in size in 2 or 3 phases and then a decorative renovation.
but with a similar initial perimeter/footprint
oh and we would have to clarify that the sealed chambers had been forever sealed.

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Harte

"Only up for speculation if you ignore the evidence such as sealed chambers bearing Khufu's cartouches."

i would clarify that when i say renovated, that the upper chambers may not be of the first inception.
they would be, as is stated. quite a massive increase in size in 2 or 3 phases and then a decorative renovation.
but with a similar initial perimeter/footprint
oh and we would have to clarify that the sealed chambers had been forever sealed.

And the so-called "air shafts?" They have Egyptian hieroglyphs painted on (likely quarry marks) with red ochre, just like the relieving chambers.

You grasp at straws here.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

thats ambiguious!
who is grasping at straws?
i have all the numbers now, i happily accept their initial physical quantities, it will just take a little time to present.
what i suspect will become apparent is that the values of the material mass are subdivided by time
much like marduks earlier contention
i.e. there is total mass, there is time, this will produce average weight/over time, for total
so this will give us the carrying capacity of the task.
i think with the document, i can accompany the figures for the speed and material with the verbal summary of the process.
this will equate the proposed speed of work with proposed techniques, enabling us to ascertain neccesary working space and mechanical force needed, this will give us minimum tolerance for things such as cordage and friction, frictions gonna cut into space, time and force.
it doesnt look correct at first glance next to the quantity assessment.
if it was a tender for work, it seems like magic beans.
and thats from todays perspective, with machinery.
"Thus the total labor costs for construction of the pyramid were approximately
111 million jugs of beer and 126 million loaves of bread over the 10-year span of the project."
i doubt the above summary will be our conclusion.
and we will see how many times the following terms occur in the ten page analysis
"we assume"
"speculate/d"
"could have"

a reply to: Harte

And the so-called "air shafts?" They have Egyptian hieroglyphs painted on (likely quarry marks) with red ochre, just like the relieving chambers.

sorry, to further clarify, when i say "sealed" in previous statement i mean sealed against cartouche carvers, not neccesarily hermeticly sealed.
and they would have been built in with the upper chambers
the idea that they were sealed from their construction and bear the cartouche is important but not so if the cartouches could have been carved into an existing structure then sealed off.
thats the implication i intended

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Harte

And the so-called "air shafts?" They have Egyptian hieroglyphs painted on (likely quarry marks) with red ochre, just like the relieving chambers.

sorry, to further clarify, when i say "sealed" in previous statement i mean sealed against cartouche carvers, not neccesarily hermeticly sealed.
and they would have been built in with the upper chambers
the idea that they were sealed from their construction and bear the cartouche is important but not so if the cartouches could have been carved into an existing structure then sealed off.
thats the implication i intended

There are no carved cartouches in the GP. They are painted on - by work gangs - using red ocher.

The shafts are 8-inch rectangles. Who painted inside them? Tom Thumb?
You realize these shafts aren't in the "upper chamber" portion of the GP?

Harte

a reply to: Harte

makes no difference
you missed this bit again
"and they would have been built in with the upper chambers"
which was emphasising
"i would clarify that when i say renovated, that the upper chambers may not be of the first inception."
which was in the earlier post

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Harte

makes no difference
you missed this bit again
"and they would have been built in with the upper chambers"
which was emphasising
"i would clarify that when i say renovated, that the upper chambers may not be of the first inception."
which was in the earlier post

No, I got that.

But I'm still waiting for your explanation of the red ocher glyphs.
Do you think the Egyptians stole the language from these earlier pyramid builders as well as the structures?

Harte

What I like about the supposed renovation is how did the Egyptians manage to get all the carbon dates right. its almost as if they were trying to fool a technology they didn't know existed into thinking that the Pyramids were built during the Egyptian period.

But please, get back to your entry level argument

a reply to: Harte
"No, I got that.

But I'm still waiting for your explanation of the red ocher glyphs.
Do you think the Egyptians stole the language from these earlier pyramid builders as well as the structures?"

the explanation is as is said.
the upper chambers, air shafts and tura facing were built by khufus lads.
so in fact you didnt get it.
again.
thats three times now.

a reply to: Marduk

please try to read more carefully.
or is your comprehension on a par with your entry level math?

a reply to: Harte

"
The shafts are 8-inch rectangles. Who painted inside them? Tom Thumb?
You realize these shafts aren't in the "upper chamber" portion of the GP? "

and you realize that there are two upper chambers, with the shafts?
am i to assume this far into this that you dont know how a ram pump works?

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Marduk

please try to read more carefully.
or is your comprehension on a par with your entry level math?

Dude, you are still questioning the dating and you don't seem to understand the basic facts
Why do you think everyone else has abandoned this thread.
its basic entry level mumbo jumbo and apparently, you are the only one here who can't see that

I think username is trying to say the upper chambers (and 'air' shafts and tura facing) were a later addition to the pyramid, added by Khufu's workers, as a way of explaining at least how Khufu's cartouches and other worker graffiti got into certain impossible-to-reach and sealed spaces.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

heavy weather to push through, i reckon.
they give no mercy.
and as you sow, so shall you reap.
e=mc2

a reply to: Marduk


"Dude, you are still questioning the dating and you don't seem to understand the basic facts
Why do you think everyone else has abandoned this thread.
its basic entry level mumbo jumbo and apparently, you are the only one here who can't see that"

dude, i am not questioning the dating of the dated bits. i am questioning of the basic facts, few that there are.
i understand the basic bits. and i understand the more complicated bits
the threads not about popularity, if i wanted to be popular i would have gone for something more controversial, if thats how you debate your basic facts, good luck because there is always the base 10 mathematical system.
i imply it was built on metric which apparently is a new invention like the ram pump.
idiots standing on the shoulders of the dead.
so the dutch invented differential water pressure, and the french invented the metric, but neither invented physical ratios, and yet they were visually apparent since nature started work.
please explain your definition of entry level mumbo jumbo and am i the only one here who cant see it?
for #s sake!
its in print like a trail. you can see it if you read coherently. trouble is if you guys pigeon hole an approach then you see what you want to see, thats just normal.
wanna see some bull#, did you notice in this assessment;
the granite is not in the estimation, nor is and get this if you read it through, scaffolding time,voids are subtracted and tunnelling time not included, ramps are presumed to be made by earth where the carrying timei s less than 10 per cent by volume.
no method statement. i e they propose no method to do forecasted work.
the blocks are dragged on rollers, up an incline that is unsafe for modern freight trucks, by 20 guys, in 4 hours.
to a secondary spiral ramp.
so just for a taster, the new figures for the finished structure are
147m high
53014m2 base area
2600000m3 volume
at a mass of 2563 kg m3
this means for an estimated construction time of 5 years;
or 14000 hours
per hour=185.7m3/hour
476 kg/hour
and i see no indication the casing stones are included
outer wall not mentioned
sub chamber unaccounted
no fine work accounted
blocks from 2300kg to 5400kg up to 18000kg
tolerance on casing stones under 3mm
this is merely the put in place, logistics of quarrying, transport and support are not assessed
its frankly a sham tender.
i will take it apart properly when i have the time, but meanwhile if ahyone would like to buy a bridge, i have one for sale in london.

Your calculations as you have been told before only take into account one work team placing one block
There were thousands of work teams but you haven't changed your math to account for that because as I said earlier you are stuck on entry level nonsense and unaware of the basic facts

Like for instance, if the GP was built by an earlier group, why does Egyptian tomb architecture show a slow advancement over hundreds of years until the first true pyramid was built. The first true pyramid was built at Dashur by Khufu's father Sneferu.
Red pyramid

I guess they rebuilt that one too huh, along with the one immediately preceding it which they messed up

the meidum pyramid

So your claim that it was renovated, is really a claim that the Egyptians built nothing at all...
Yet they still had the technology to make sure that the samples used thousands of years later for radiocarbon datingwhich proved the construction date, were all in the right place.

When you require psychic powers to prove a hypothesis, then your hypothesis is baloney

a reply to: username74

oh and just to stir the pot a bit, if the limestone is quarried on the plateaux then it has to be dragged to the start of the ramp!